"John Edser"  wrote in news:btnr0o$gs0$1
{at}darwin.ediacara.org:

> JE:-
> Spencer only use the word "survival" to mean 
> how long any organism lived. Thus:
> Those that live longer are fitter, because
> fitter forms must live longer.
> 
> If you define fitness in genetic survival terms then
> Spencer's jingle equates "survival" with both maximal 
> phylogenetic survival (genes over organism generations)
> AND maximal organism reproduction, thus allowing the 
> word to be ambiguous, i.e. it can mean two CONTRADICTORY 
> causations:
> 
> 1) Survival = Maximal organism reproduction.
> 
> 2) Survival = Maximal gene replication.
> 
> Since 2) is empirically fitness dependent on 1) 
> and not vice versa, then only 1 is a valid _causation_.
> Nobody here will admit that 2) is entirely 
> dependent on 1). Hamilton argues that 1)
> is entirely dependent on 2) against ALL
> THE EVIDENCE using just an invalid proposition,
> Hamilton's rule.
> 


Well we finally see the root of your objection to Hamilton, and it is - 
(surprise, surprise) - "gene centrism"! 


But your problem seems to be only in your own mind. It is obvious that 
naked genes will not survive outside organisms - so in order for genes to 
reproduce the organisms that carry them must reproduce. Hamilton's 
argument is in fact based on that proposition. Hamilton DOES NOT argue 
that 1) is dependent on 2). What Hamilton does argue is that maximal 
organism reproduction does not mean maximal reproduction of only one's 
own offspring, but must include reproduction of any offspring that share 
one's genes. The only way this could not be true was if genes were 
unimportant in determining survival, i.e. if fitness was only dependent 
on who your parents are and not on what genes they have, i.e. if there is 
no heritability, i.e. if Darwin was wrong. So your disagreement with 
Hamilton logically must mean that Darwin was wrong.Is this your position, 
that Darwin was wrong? 

Yours,

Bill Morse
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