"Marc Verhaegen"  wrote in
news:buf7c6$132h$1{at}darwin.ediacara.org: 

> 
> "William Morse"  wrote in message
> news:buc90a$9q2$1{at}darwin.ediacara.org...
 
>> >> We are so poorly adapted to truly deep diving that the
>> >> well-developed 
> vocality is unlikely to be due to the development of conscious
> breathing control
 
>> > 1) I didn't say that, see the scenario above. There's no doubt IMO
> vocality as in gibbons played an important role in the development of
> human vocality. Otters (waterside) are more vocalic that weasels.
> Arboreal mammals are usu. more vocalic than related species in more
> open milieus. Savanna mammals generally have less variation in
> vocality. 


 
>> >>, as it may be in birds and truly aquatic mammals. It is more
>> >>likely 
> that the breath-hold control is a byproduct of speech.
 
>> > Then you can't explain speech. You can't explain why human can
>> > speak & 
> why chimps couldn't evolve this skill.
 
>> Chimps (or rather a very near relative) _did_ evolve this skill. We
>> are 
> the result. Read "The Symbolic Species" for an excellent discussion of
> this topic.
 
> ?? You don't claim chimps speak, I hope??

I think we have a semantic misunderstanding. What you may have meant to 
say is that  I can't explain why the lineage that led to chimps from our 
last common ancestor  _didn't_ evolve this skill (speech).My point was 
that humans evolved from something very like chimps, which implies that 
chimps _could_ evolve speech given the right conditions. Our contention 
is over what conditions are required for chimp-like apes to evolve 
speech. Deacon in the reference above discusses vocality in aquatic 
mammals and birds, which he attributes (correctly IMHO) to their need for 
conscious breath control. I simply don't think human ancestors were 
sufficiently aquatic over a sufficiently long time for their aquatic 
existence to have led to speech.
 
Yours,

Bill Morse
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