Rod -


 RS>> to know one particular person who has bludged off the dole for TWENTY
 RS>> years,

 RSt>> I don't doubt this, it may well be true. However, let's look at the
 RSt>> logic:

 RS> You wouldnt know what 'logic' was if it bit you on the bum Russ.

I have noticed that when your arguments run out of puff you resort to
pithy sayings or childish personal insults.

 RSt>> (1) I know a man who was unemployed and didn't want to work.

 RS> You asked for evidence that some operate like that. Thats evidence.

'One' does not equal 'some' or 'plenty'. You have provided nothing. Are
you purposely being obtuse or is it just a natural talent?

 RSt>> (2) There are unemployed people.

 RS> Hardly what you might call some shocking revelation Russ.

I know. I felt I had to keep things simple for you. 8^)

 RSt>> (4) Unemployed people do not want to work.

 RS> Whoops, guess who cant even count to 4 successfully.
 RS> That must do GREAT things for your employment prospects Russ.

It was meant to be reflect your flawed logic (ie 1+2=4). The fact that
you jumped on something so trivial is truly indicative of your nature.

 RSt>> Can you say the word "generalisation"?

 RS> I can also say the words 'mindless' and 'bullshit' too Russ.

Irrational. You still generalise.

 RSt>> I DON'T deny that some are rorting the system -

 RS> Oh good, you would look pretty damned silly if you tried to.
 RS> You demanded evidence, you got some evidence. Your problem Russ.

Ummm... run that by me one more time, Rod. Just *where* exactly was
that evidence?

 RSt>> if there is a scam to be had, some people will find a way;

 RS> They will indeed. THATS what some have been saying Russ.

Bzzzt! Nobody had suggested this.

 RSt>> human nature I suppose.

 RS> It is indeed. Pity that thats just what we have been saying Russ.

Bzzt! You haven't. You have, however, been saying a lot of vacuous
things.

 RSt>> (A) Your 'wealth of evidence'. Where?

 RS> Get off your bum and chase up more if you want more. Your problem Russ.

Using the word 'more' implies that you have already provided some; you
haven't. Incorrect.

 RSt>> (B) 'the vast bulk of the people there bludging off welfare'
 RSt>> What are your figures and from where did you get them?

 RS> I told you that, no point in just mindlessly asking the same question
 RS> over and over again, you fool absolutely no one at all doing that.

Bzzzt! Telling me that figures exist is *not* the same as providing
those figures. Neither is telling me to go and find them.

 RSt>> As above, I AGREE that some are probably rorting the system

 RS> As above, there is plenty of evidence of lots of it going on Russ.

Incorrect. 'As above'? Where was the 'plenty' as above? A story about
ONE person you know does not constitute 'plenty'.

 RSt>> (I do not think the figure is quantifiable, though, for various
 RSt>> reasons).

 RS> Depends entirely on what you call quantifiable Russ. Yes, it may
 RS> indeed be quite difficult to put a precise figure on it. Pity that
 RS> thats not actually necessary if you have said that heaps of it
 RS> goes on, and there is evidence to substantiate THAT statement.

Unfounded. Merely saying that 'heaps of it goes on' does not prove it.

 RS> Put up a better screen of bullshit, we can see
 RS> straight thru what you are putting up right now.

Meaningless waffle, diverting attention from the original point.

 RS>> I cannot however, like you, tar all the unemployed with the same
 RS>> brush.

 RS> The fancy name for that stuff in the official
 RS> statistics is the participation rate. You can look the numbers up
 RS> anytime.

As above, telling me that certain figures exist "somewhere" proves nothing.

I am yet to see you do anything but rubbish any unemployed person who
writes in this echo.

 RSt>>> Sources appreciated.

 RS>> The stats on the number on the dole etc are published periodically,
 RS>> it really is rather interesting to look at the specific places where
 RS>> you can bludge on the dole in maximum comfort. Or rather obscene
 RS>> actually.

 RSt>> You didn't answer my question.

 RS> Fraid I did Russ. I told you the numbers are published periodically.
 RS> If you arent prepared to get off your arse and look them up, your
 RS> problem.

You STILL didn't answer my question.

 RS>> Be interesting to see if the new government rips that feather bed
 RS>> away.

 RSt>> Irrelevant.

 RS> Nope, it aint irrelevant if they pull the plug on some dole
 RS> bludgers. Certainly nothing like irrelevant to the dole bludger
 RS> affected.

Irrelevant to our discussion, not to the people affected. You are
indeed well versed in stating the obvious, Rod.

 RSt>> So there IS a safety net to help us when we are "inevitably
 RSt>> unemployed", but we shouldn't avail ourselves of it?

 RS>> Yes, you should make your own provision for the inevitable times when
 RS>> you are between jobs and not spend everything you earn while working.

 RSt>> Low-income earners would probably not be able to do this.

 RS> Thats complete an UTTER crap Russ. It really is quite interesting
 RS> to look at the official statistics on the household expenditure of
 RS> the 'low income earners', where they spend their money. There is an
 RS> AMAZING level of discretionary expenditure on fast food, cigarettes,
 RS> video rental, etc etc etc. They CHOOSE to spend on that stuff.

If you have looked at the 'official statistics', please, enlighten me.

Call me a cynic, but I have a sneaking suspicion that you make things
up as you go along.

 RSt>> What would you suggest for them?

 RS> Give up smoking might be a hand start. Save that to use when between
 RS> jobs.

 RSt>> As for me, I don't mind paying tax for an albeit imperfect welfare
 RSt>> system.

 RS> Thats entirely your choice. You might just find that most feel
 RS> otherwise.

You are stating the obvious again, Rod. Reread my first three words
above.

 RS>> They do indeed, and plenty essentially volunteer to live like that.

 RSt>>> 'plenty'. Enlighten me again... please quantify 'plenty'.

 RS>> You know what the word means. No use trying to pretend it doesnt
 RS>> happen.

 RSt>> I'm not - I agree that it certainly CAN (and probably does) happen.

 RS> And the normal usage of the word plenty is very well understood. If you
 RS> dont understand what it means, buy a dictionary or use one down the
 RS> library.

Irrational.

 RSt>> I just don't believe in pulling a quantifier from thin
 RSt>> air and using it to validate a basically dodgy argument.

 RS> But you clearly do believe in this sort of pathetically mindless
 RS> bullshit instead. Pity it fools absolutely no one at all.

Irrational, insulting question-begging as a last resort.

I bet you subscribe to the belief that people will understand you
better if you speak louder, too. It's of the same mentality.

 RSt>> How do you *know* Jon doesn't try very hard to find work?

 RS>> That was rather obvious from his silly comment about '10
 RS>> applications',
 RS>> he clearly is just satisfying the bureaucratic requirement to continue
 RS>> to receive the dole, it aint about counting applications, its about
 RS>> putting your brain into gear and increasing your employability etc.

 RSt>> As ridiculous a generalisation as I have ever seen.

 RS> Pity it aint a generalisation, you need that dictionary bad Russ.
 RS> Your bullshitting skills need heaps of work. Likely there are still
 RS> some wanky 'training' schemes you can enrol in to work on those.

Irrational. Insulting. Doesn't really say anything at all.

 RSt>> Your logic really is underwhelming at times, Rod.

 RS> You wouldnt actually know what logic was if it bit you on the bum
 RS> Russ. Presumably that considerably stuffs you employability too.

Pithy and insulting - contains no facts.

Well, overall, I'd have to say your message was a pretty poor effort.
You *really* need to brush up on your skills, Rod; your 'arguments'
(for want of a better word) have holes in them through which I could
drive a semi-trailer. Your method certainly reveals some things about
your mentality and character that are almost too frightening to imagine.



Cheers...

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russell{at}seranis.com.au
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