BOB MOYLAN spoke of Spelling... to DAN TRIPLETT on 10-05-96
BM>Dan Triplett On (02 Oct 96) was overheard to say to Bob Moylan
BM> Okay.
BM> Since this thread started you have provide a LOT of additional
BM> information on what you do in your classroom.  What you say you are
BM> doing is not what I have seen.  You have said, or implied, that
BM> creative spelling leads to acquisition of spelling skills and that
BM> you'd rather not stifle the child's creativity when making these
BM> exploratory attempts. (ok so far?)
Not exactly....I don't know that I implied that children "learn" 
spelling skills by being "creative" in their early spelling attempts.  
What I have said (or tried to say) is that approximated spellings are 
natural and a likely occurance in early childhood programs that have 
many writing experiences for children.  I have stated that children do 
pass through these spelling stages and that they do learn correct 
spelling as they mature as writers.  It has been suggested by research 
that approximated spellers do develop into accomplished spellers.  
The second part about creativity is correct.
BM> DT> At least I didn't get the connection you were trying to
BM> DT> make.
BM> I don't see that there is a connection between creative spelling and
BM> teaching spelling. 
The connection seems obvious to me..:)
 I don't agree that simply exposing a child to
BM> something means that they are going to learn anything about it.
I agree with this...I have stated that expecting children to learn by 
osmosis is not a WL concept.
BM> I don't think you can convince me that no matter how "language rich"
BM> a classroom is that any child is going to pick it up just because
BM>it's  there - yes I know this not the way you say WL is supposed to
BM>work and  isn't what you do.
You are correct.  It takes more than a "language rich" or "print rich" 
classroom environment to ensure success in language learning.  However, 
these are two _Very_ _Important_ elements in WL.  If instruction is left 
out, some children will learn anyway, but instruction is also very 
important here.  I approach instruction very differently than one might 
think.  I teach in the context of what we are doing at the moment.  
Phonics is not isolated but is taught using the child's language 
(thereby making it more meaningful).  Studies have shown that children 
pick up alphabetic concepts when whole words are present (meaning is 
present) rather than isolating letters (abstract and meaningless to many 
children).
BM> I've heard kindergarten
BM>teachers brag about  one or two kids they have that are really taking
BM>off and just flying  through everything.  Much like you did in one of
BM> your posts.  I think that is just great but what about the others
BM>who aren't getting it,  who may be just as confused in June as they
BM>were in September?
The ones who are taking off and flying are the brightest ones and they 
are ahead of every one.  It is the bell curve.  Most of the kids are at 
grade level expectations.  Those on the bottom are there because they, 
even with the added help I provide, are just a bit behind 
developmentally and no amount of instruction will teach a child a 
concept that he/she is not developmentally ready to comprehend.  These 
kids need more work (expose and practice).
  Chuck has said it best...kids are sent to
BM>school to learn.  All the  high sounding educational theory in the
BM>world isn't worth a hill of  beans if it isn't applied in such a way
BM>that all kids learn. 
Agreed....so why would you insist of teaching in ways that are found to 
be inferior?  
 I once  had an undergrad prof (with over 30
BM>years experience in public  school classrooms) present to us what she
BM>called the "potato theory"  of education.  It goes something like
BM>this...you can send a potato to  school and "expose" it to all manner
BM>of things bright and beautiful.  Exposure isn't going to change that
BM>potato, it's still going to be  just what it started out as - a
BM>potato.  You can send a child to  school and expose it to all manner
BM>of things bright and beautiful but  if you are not actively teaching
BM>that child it might just as well be  the potato.
Cute -- but children aren't potatoes and unlike potatoes children _do_ 
learn from exposure to ideas and things, and they _do_ pick up concepts 
in the context of learning activities, and they _do_ change and grow 
simply because it is the nature of our brain to make sense of our world.  
I think it is the teacher's job to be a facilitator of learning.  I must 
continually assess where each child is at, and provide learning 
experiences that *engage* the learner.  If a child, like your potato, is 
just sitting and doing nothing (not engaged) then of course they won't 
learn much.  I don't simply put a ABC chart on the wall and expect 
children to learn the ABC's as a result.  We are "alphabet rich" in the 
classroom and I provide many many learning opportunities for every 
child.  The idea that WL just puts ideas out there and we just cross our 
fingers hoping the kids will get it.....silly.  
BM> DT> I thought Chuck was saying ... until they have some grasp of the
BM> DT> fundamentals.  He likened it to learning a sport ... although
BM> DT> the analogy is interesting, it doesn't fit here.  At least it
BM> DT> doesn't fit for me.
BM> Chuck speaks from a middle school perspective, I speak from a
BM> parent and teacher's perspective.  I understood his analogy and
BM> thought it fit quite well.  Drill and practice isn't very
BM>fashionable  any more but it worked way back when and it still works
BM>now.
Research argues with you both.....
BM> Children need to be made to understand that their only reason for
BM> being in school is to learn, not to be "socialized" 
You don't think socialization skill require learning?  Are you 
suggesting that children are only in school for learning academic 
concepts such as reading, writing, math, and science?   Ahhhhhhh
or have their
BM>egos  stroked or learn how to "feel good about themselves". 
This I agree with you on although I do believe that children need to 
know they are valued.  Respect is very important and should be expected 
from student to teacher and teacher to student.  Yes I am the adult and 
they must treat me with the respect due me.  But they are worthy of 
respecting as well.
Discipline comes before instruction.  
Dan
CMPQwk 1.42 445p
... If you just have to have the last word, make it Good-Bye!
* ++++++  *
     _   /|    ACK!
     \'o.O'   /
     =(__)+
       U
 
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 
---------------