Wayne Chirnside wrote in a message to Roy J. Tellason:

 WC> This is EXACTLY what I feared and in fact predicted from the very
 WC> first :-(

 RJT> Oh,  I've got some more info to post on that.  I just need to get it
 RJT> over to this machine...

Actually it was over on this machine,  in a mailing list.  Subj. line was
Oh, great...

 WC>  More is coming out about the abuses of this all the time :-( 
 WC> Actually the abuse was passing it in the first place.

No difference of opinion there.  I'd suspected that our politicians were
thinking that way for a long time,  this just shows it more blatantly.

 WC> Senator Patrick J. Leahy of Vermont, the ranking Democrat on the
 WC> Judiciary Committee, said members of Congress expected some of the
 WC> new powers granted to law enforcement to be used for nonterrorism
 WC> investigations. But he said the Justice Department's secrecy and
 WC> lack of cooperation in putting the legislation into effect made him
 WC> question whether "the government is taking shortcuts around the
 WC> criminal laws" by invoking intelligence powers -- with differing
 WC> standards of evidence — to conduct surveillance operations and
 WC> demand access to records.

 RJT> No,  really?!  Duh...!

 WC> Guilty until proven innocent, if they let you attempt to do so :-(

 RJT> If you ever freakin' make it to court,  instead of just "getting
 RJT> disappeared"...

 WC>  That's what if they let you above refers to.

Even I,  as doubtful as I was of some of the ravings coming out of the more
extreme corners of the 'net,  when talking about such things as the camps
and whatnot didn't think they'd go quite as far as they seem to have with
this. And it's all "legal",  too...

 WC> "We did not intend for the government to shed the traditional
 WC> tools of criminal investigation, such as grand jury subpoenas
 WC> governed by well-established precedent and wiretaps strictly
 WC> monitored" by federal judges, he said.

 RJT> If they expected something other than what they got,  they really
 RJT> oughta get their heads outta their butts...

 WC> Justice Department officials say such criticism has not deterred
 WC> them.

 RJT> "Sticks and stones..."

 WC> They need to rename that Department to reflect it's new goals...
 WC> Injustice Department?

 RJT> I _really_ need to get myself another copy of 1984.  And maybe Brave
 RJT> New World,

 WC> Read the first but not the latter.

A very different approach to a dystopia,  but well worth the read,  I think.

 RJT>  while I'm at it.  I've read both,  don't know what happened to the
 RJT> copies I used to have.  But I think it's time for a refresher course,
 RJT> so to speak...

 WC> "There are many provisions in the Patriot Act that can be used in
 WC> the general criminal law," Mark Corallo, a department spokesman,
 WC> said. "And I think any reasonable person would agree that we have
 WC> an obligation to do everything we can to protect the lives and
 WC> liberties of Americans from attack, whether it's from terrorists
 WC> or garden-variety criminals."

 RJT> Lives _and_ liberties?!  Right.

 RJT> They're gonna do what they want to do,  and any excuse that's handy
 RJT> _will_ be used...

 WC> And the sheeple will cheerfully support it because it's called
 WC> "The Patriot Act."

 RJT> Until their ox is gored,  yeah.

 WC>  But by then they will no longer be heard of and only they will
 WC> know of the injustice having been silenced :-(

Unless there's enough of them,  which remains to be seen.

 WC> The incredible lack of critical thinking in this country today is
 WC> depressing to me.

 RJT> I saw a post elsewhere that suggested that at least how people _feel_
 RJT> about this stuff and how they're reacting to things may be changing...

 WC> If you recall I've already said when Bush - Ashcroft first came to
 WC> power and started violating the Constitution left and right I had
 WC> _some_ hope for a backlash effect from their transgressions. 

 WC> I certainly hope this hope is forfilled

I have my doubts about whether joe average is going to bestir himself
unless pushed too far,  and those guys are real good at not pushing too
hard,  for the most part,  that's a lot of how they get away with what they
do.  The process that's going on has been going on for _generations_ now, 
and slowing it down,  stopping it,  or reversing it is not going to be
something trivial or easy...

I'm open to suggestions!

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