John Edser wrote:
>>>>JE:-
>>>>How can you measure c when the sign of c is arbitrary?
>>>


>>BOH:-
>>c is the difference in fitness 
>>between individuals carrying out an action 
>>and those not carrying out  the action.
> 
> 
>>JE:-
>>Yes, but this difference can be EITHER negative,
>>i.e. an absolute _gain_ to the donor or positive
>>i.e. an absolute _cost_ to the donor! AGAIN,
>>you cannot measure c if you cannot know its
>>sign!{at}# 
> 
> 
> BOH:-
> Huh?  Surely it's the converse that's true - you cannot know the sign of 
> c without measuring it.
> 
> JE:
> No, the variable c is just a count defining
> a SUPPOSED cost c for the donor. The things being 
> counted to measure this cost are the result 
> of a donation to n recipients (plural) from
> just one (singular) donor. 

What are yo on about?  c is the difference in direct fitnesses between 
indivuduals carrying out teh action, and those not carrying it out.

Hence, it is (at closest) a difference between counts, if one is 
measuring fitness purely as offspring reproduced.  Who the recipients 
are is a mystery to me.

You still haven't addressed the main point - OFM and OFA are defined by 
the sign of c, so one has to know the sign of c before deciding whether 
an action is mutualism or altruism.  How can one do this without 
measuring c?


>>___________________________________________
>>Do you agree that the use of Hamilton's
>>rule to support OFA after group selection 
>>failed to do so, was a misuse of that rule?
>>
>>*please answer this question with a yes or no*
> 
> 
> BOH:-
> I have answered this several times, 
> and see no point in repeating myself.
> 
> JE:-
> You have never answered it. 

See my post from the 26th of last month (the answer was given before 
then, but I must have sent it from another computer.  But here's what's 
in my files:

JE:-
Do you now conclude that Hamilton's
rule has been misused to explain apparent
OFM in nature?


BOH:-
No.

Bob

-- 
Bob O'Hara

Dept. of Mathematics and Statistics
P.O. Box 4 (Yliopistonkatu 5)
FIN-00014 University of Helsinki
Finland
Telephone: +358-9-191 23743
Mobile: +358 50 599 0540
Fax:  +358-9-191 22 779
WWW:  http://www.RNI.Helsinki.FI/~boh/
Journal of Negative Results - EEB: http://www.jnr-eeb.org
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