To: 
From: "Vern Humphrey" 
Reply-To: r_catholic-l{at}yahoogroups.com

To: seanmbrook{at}aol.com [mailto:seanmbrook{at}aol.com]
> >
> > VH> It's a big "Aw, shit!"  NOW we see how the Q Document
> hypothesis led us
> > in
> > the wrong direction.
> > >
>  And scholars are only human.  It's going to take many
>  a LONG time to rethink more skeptically the theory
>  of Q/Markan Priority. I've done some Internet browsing
>  about the Oxford Fragments.  So far I haven't seen
>  much by "big name" scholars about the Fragments.
>  What I've read was mostly in the popular press.

You won't -- which big name scholars doesn't have a commitment to Markan
priority?  Who wants to admit he's wrong?
> >
> > VH> Yes -- but clearly, the way it got there was through the
> initiative of
> > the
> > Apostles, not through a detailed plan left for them by Jesus.
> > >
>  Certainly.  Our Lord left such things to the Apostles
>  and their successors.  Some might think it was very
>  strange, even "offensive," for Christ to leave so much
>  to our free will.

I can recall one person who was absolutely outraged that early Christians
behaved like Catholics. :-)
> >
> > VH> But the fact that he could make such an argument shows how numerous
> > Christians were.  He might have been off by ten or even 20 percent, but
> > that's still a LOT of Christians.
> > > >
>  Correct.  I think the Empire was estimated to have
>  a pop.of about fifty millions in AD 200.  Between
>  thirty and forty percent of that is a LOT.

And many of them were of the strata of society that does all the work. :-)
> >
> > VH> That's because we make the mistake of thinking the Koran is
> the "Muslim
> > Bible," and they make the mistake of thinking the Bible is the
> "Christian
> > Koran." :-)
>
>  Not sure I do that. I usally say the Koran is the
>  Muslim holy book.  I know it's a lot different from
>  the Bible.

That's the first step to understanding it.  And it shows WHY it's so
difficult for non-Muslims to understand and interpret the Koran.  We come
to it with certain built-in assumptions.
>
>  And many do seem to be confused by the Bible.
>  Some complain about how it contains stories of
>  murder, incest, and sin even in those Muslims
>  consider prophets.  Like Moses and Solomon.

And that's their built-in assumption.  The Bible is not the Koran, nor is
it "like" the Koran.  It can't be understood through the same
techniques.
> >
> > VH> Yes -- and if you read the Bible with hostile eyes, you
> will find many
> > contradictions there.
> > >
>  I've had experience of that.  One example being
>  the alleged "contradiction" about King Jehoiachin's
>  age at the time of his accession in different mss.
>  I pointed that was simply an example of minor
>  scribal blundering.

I had in mind things like God ordering the Israelites to kill everyone
before them, and Christ's teaching about love and turning the other cheek.
That's what leaps out to non-Christians.
>
>  But, I prefer to debate on the IDEAS contained in
>  the Bible or the Koran.  Not quibble over petty
>  scribal mistakes.

These are not petty scribal mistakes.  The God of the Old Testament is a
harsh god, and the God of the New Testament is a loving god.
>
> > SMB> Correct.  And I've never seen any sensible reply to
> > > the Catholic challenge: "If we are wrong, why did Christ
> > > leave Christianity in error for so many centuries?"
> >
> > VH> And equally important, "How did He authorize you to
correct it?"
> >
>  Correct.  And the proper reply of a Catholic to
>  Prot. claims is to DENY Luther, Calvin, Cranmer,
>  etc., have any authority to meddle with the deposit
>  of faith.

Which is my position with respect to someone not too far away. :-)
>


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