"Paul Crowley"  wrote 

> > > I would never put forward anything so foolish.
> > > Chimps (and other quadrupedal hominoids)
> > > have perfectly good systems for carrying
> > > infants and food, which they've had for some
> > > tens of millions of years.  There is no remotely
> > > possibility of a 'selective pressure' from those
> > > activities -- except to continue doing exactly
> > > what they are doing now.
> >
> > You seem unable to comprehend that with A'pith we
> > are talking about animals that are extremely
> > dependent on treed habitat.  Let me explain.  With
> > the onset of the monsoon habitat of late miocene
> > Africa, treed habitat became very patchy.  We might
> > envision the geography as now having only 10% to
> > 20% of the tree cover that it had previously and
> > all of this being in city-sized, town sized patches
> > of forest along or near water features: rivers,
> > lake, ponds, and even areas of high ground water.
> > The expansive, predatory filled, treeless habitat
> > was unsurvivable to them.  They weren't out walking
> > around much.
> 
> When this happened (and it may well have
> done in some places at some times) it probably
> did so over many generations -- but, in any
> case, far too quickly to allow for evolutionary
> adaptation.  Any hominids in the area would
> not have coped -- they'd have died, or moved
> away.

In the town-sized, city-sized patches of remaining 
forest that I envision they would have persisted--as 
long as they had strategies that allowed them to 
survive the dry season.

> 
> > > > Bipedalism is a stick-wielding,  rock-throwing
> > > > adaptation
> > >
> > > I don't buy rock-throwing though.  Good
> > > throwing rocks (that can be thrown some
> > > distance and do some damage) are not
> > > easy to find on the ground in nearly all
> > > circumstances when you need them.
> >
> > You'd first have to sell me on your premise
> > that it is supposedly necessary to assume that for
> > rock throwing to have been selectively advantageous that it
> > is necessary for them to have been able to "do some
> > damage," to quote your words.
> 
> A large animal is not going to move away,
> unless it has realistic fears of suffering injury.

Are you saying that being hit by rocks and clubs can't 
cause injury?

> 
> > I indicate otherwise
> > in my hypothesis.  More to the point, according to my
> > hypothesis their rock throwing would not need to be
> > lethal, it just had to be good enough to scare off
> > large mammals with whom which they competed for
> > resources.
> 
> What large mammals are these?  What are
> they eating?

Migratory African animals eating vegetation.

> 
> > > That
> > > would mean that early (proto-)hominids
> > > would have had to carry a supply -- and
> > > that's highly unlikely.
> >
> > So, let me get this straight, in your learned opinion
> > it's not plausible that A'pith might carry rocks a few
> > hundred yards,
> 
> It's not easy to carry more than a few rocks
> in your arms for a few hundred yards -- 
> especially over rough ground

Is it, supposedely, easier to carry a baby while 
being chased by a pack of lions?

> 
> > and/or from one strategic location to
> > another, within the context of a town sized patch of
> > forest habitat (as indicated in my hypthesis)
> 
> And when you get them to the place you
> need, the targets will usually have moved
> on anyway.

In my model getting their targets (large migratory 
food competitors) to move away *is* the goal.

> 
> > but supposedly
> > it is plausible for them to be carrying their young
> > through treeless habitat
> 
> I don't see hominids carrying small infants
> around -- except over very short distances,
> or on very rare migrations.

Then why would you suggest this as a significant 
factor of hominid evolution?

> 
> > running from and fending off
> > lions, hyena, and wild dogs (as, it seems, is indicated
> > in your hypothesis).
> 
> Nope.  I don't see hominid life as viable
> at all when there were predators in any
> numbers.

I agree.  The best strategy of an early hominid 
community to avoid predation is to maintain the 
resources at their isolated city-sized, town-sized 
patch of forest so that they may continue to maintain 
their individual strengths and collective unity 
through the dry season so that the predators will 
ignore them and go to other more poverty stricken 
patches of forest wherein the A'piths are individually 
weak and collectively disunited and are, therefore, 
easier pickings.

  A small tribe could survive
> indefinitely in a river valley set on a desert
> coastline, where only the occasional lion
> turned up.  Over time, the number and size
> of potentially inhabitable valleys would
> have increased, and the required degree of
> isolation would have reduced.  But hominids
> would have always had to live at a significant
> distance from areas dominated by predators.

But the evidence indicates that hominids were regularly 
victims of predatory massacres:

http://makeashorterlink.com/?E6B112AA7

cre+group%3Asci.anthropology.paleo&btnG=Google+Search
Jim
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