TH> Once a person can understand that the uninverse is infinite, and that
 TH> the cause of the universe, which for simplicity's sake I will call the
 TH> Origin, is something which is without beginning and without end, we
 TH> can take our understanding of cause and effect and examine the order of
 TH> the universe.
 
 WE> Your 'Origin' is not the big bang origin.
 TH> Never said it was or wasn't - you really haven't been following.
 WE> I have, the Big Bang has a beginning ergo, it's not your beginningless
 WE> origin. 
By Origin, I mean that which brought the universe into existence - the force
or whatever that caused the Big Bang.
 WE> Seems you claim conservation of order.  That the total order of the
 WE> universe is constant, that order can neither be destroyed nor created. 
 WE> The Origin is the cause of the universe.  The Origin is an aspect of
 WE> reality.  So the Origin has a cause.  But this is a puzzle, how
 WE> something that never had a beginning can be caused. 
Because once a person realizes what you just said, the next question to
ask the one I delved into a while back already. If there was ever a point
in which absolutely nothing existed, no universe, or pre-existing Origin,
then would anything ever exist? Answer was no. So, seeing as how existence
does indeed exist, then there was never a time when nothing existed, that
something has always existed - something beyond the finite progression we
live in, something beyond time, something without beginning or end - an
Origin that is truly infinite. THAT is the Origin, and that is what brought
all finite things into existence. Because existence exists, it has always
existed on some level, and therefore we can see the logical necessity
for the existence of a certain level of existence that had no cause, because
everything that is caused did not exist at one time.
... Blue Wave - World Tour - 1998
---
---------------