To: 
From: "Vern Humphrey" 
Reply-To: r_catholic-l{at}yahoogroups.com

To: Michael D Brazier [mailto:mdbrazier{at}juno.com]
>
> You've seen my analysis twice now.  And, as I said before, the failure of
> Israel's policies since 1947 is not, in any sense, evidence in your
> favor.
> If a farmer's crops fail several years in a row, even though he's tried a
> nuber of different fertilizers, that is not evidence that performing rain
> dances will help his crops.

I have seen nothing that would rise to the level of a Leavenworth "D."
>
> > > My dear idiot,
> >
> > This is why I say there is no point in continuing this discussion.
>
> No, it's not.  You were saying that when I had done nothing more
> than disagree with you.  Nonetheless, I withdraw the word and
> apologize for using it.

I accept.  My regrets for any offense I have caused you.
> >
> > As opposed to treating the false beliefs of the Israelis as wholly
> > determined by causes external to the Israelis?
>
> Which false beliefs would those be?  Be specific.

That Palestinians have no rights an Israeli must respect.  That they may be
ruled by force, that they may be subjected to mass punishment, and that
they may simply be edged out of the West Bank and Gaza by continued
building of settlements.
>
> No, not at all.  Given what they've had to put up with since 1947,
> if they were beyond rational argument the Palestinians would not
> exist today.  (Bear in mind, Israel has the power to kill or expel
> every last Palestinian in Gaza or the West Bank.  You might ask
> yourself why they haven't done it.)

I know why they haven't done it -- because it would create an international
backlash.  Establishing settlements and slowly crowing the Palestinians out
is the same thing, but slower and more tolerable.
>
> I endeavor to hold both the Israelis and the Arabs to the same
> standard that I hold Americans to.  As I've already said, you
> cannot truly say as much.

There, I disagree.  Do you think Americans have the right to build
settlements in, say Afghanistan, and crowd out the locals?  Would you
approve the police in Cincinnatti shooting rioters for throwing rocks?
Would you accept that one class of people in the United States may move
into a neighborhood, carry machine guns, and deny their neighbors the same
rights?
>
> > Now, how about citing your experience in combat, or your military
> > training.  Let's see your credentials in strategy.  Then you can cite
> > basic principles as you do your analysis.
>
> Neither military nor diplomatic experience would justify your
> statement that the Palestinians' not having a state of their own
> is the real cause of the Arab-Israel conflict.

Clearly you have not had a course in basic strategy.

> You are speaking
> not as a general defending Israel or the Arabs, and not as a
> negotiator between them -- you speak solely as a man, from
> your own conscience, judging the two peoples' conduct.  I
> claim the same rights that you have exercised, as your fully
> human equal.

Rights are one thing, training and expertise another.
>
> And I see that, once again, you have decided to cut off my
> analysis in the middle.  Let's resume from where you stopped:
> ===
> Bluntly, if that were actually the case, the Arabs would _not_ be
> as fully human as anyone else, nor could they be given the same
> rights as anyone else.  They would be, precisely, slaves by nature.
> Now I deny on principle that any descendant of Adam is a slave
> by nature -- and therefore I maintain that the Arabs are open to
> reason, and that they can be argued into abandoning their war.

This is a straw man -- you have erected this idea, not I.  Nor is it in any
way related to the strategic situation.
>


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