From: Adam Flinton 

Geo. wrote:
> "Adam Flinton"  wrote in message
> news:40cb3ed4$1{at}w3.nls.net...
>
>
>>A) Torturers & abusers generally end up losing. No one was too keen on
>>the Japanese once they were found to be doing nasty things like the
>>various death marches etc.
>>
>>B) The information you get is generally poor as people will say anything
>>to stop you branding their genitals or tying them to a metal bed,
>>throwing on some water & plugging into some electricity.
>
>
> If torture didn't work nobody would use it.
>

That's not true. You get a lot of sadists in this world & a lot of sad
people who feel they must obtain power over others so as to make them feel
big. Look at how many people are tortured /cut up by crims & killers
just for a bit of a laugh. Lots of Jews in the death camps were tortured
even though they had no information.

>
>>C) It becomes endemic. Suddenly your people also start killing people
>>out of hand & discipline ends up breaking down as soldiers start killing
>>officers for a bit of a giggle. Equally people who do it tend to carry
>>on doing nasty things in civie life. You stop having a military force &
>>end up with a useless bunch of thugs & murderers who get used to
>>"fighting" unarmed prisoners.
>
>
> so don't let it become wide spread.
>

It's not that easy as evidenced by the reservist MP'es taking up the lead
from the MI & "cvilians".  It is worth reading the CAT &
then looking at a whole load of examples where the cycle turns & turns
& suddenly you get 15 year olds setting fire to people for fun.

Also on what basis are you to stop it becoming widespread? If you're
already breaking the law then heck someone starts saying "break this
law but don't break that" & you end up thinking that you can break
any you feel like.

> I know what you are saying, if everyone believes it's not acceptable to kill
> then we can have an agreement not to kill,  but.. if others don't agree then
> aren't we forced to kill to survive?
>

There's killing & then there's sadism. I think even your constitution
outlaws "cruel & unusual punishment". Humm I wonder why they
thought it necessary to get that in there just like the freedom of the
press & the powers & duties of various branches of the gov.....


>
>>D) If you're fighting for a totalitarian system then OK but if not then
>>you are not fighting for anything assuming survival of the state is not
>>in question.
>
>
> With al Qaeda are we not fighting for survival of the state?
>

Possibly for the survival of the Saudi absolute monarchy. It's funny but
I'd never considered the US to be in favour of absolute monarchies.

>
>>There is also the question of is it efficacious. If you end up with
>>wrong information & a bunch of thugs & murderers you are
then going to
>>in effect let loose on your own civies then...
>
>
> well that's the nature of any information is it not?
>

There's interogation where you know a bit of the truth & you are
encouraging people to fill in the blanks by trick or promise etc &
there's electrofrying someone's genitals whereupon they'll say just about
anything.


>
>>It becomes a circular justification. i.e. the more it is done the more
>>the reprisals against the troops get worse so the more it gets done etc
>>until eventually you're signing up for some ethnic cleansing. German
>>anti-partisan operations in WW2 are a textbook example.
>
>
> ethnic cleansing is only ethnic cleansing when it's done for ethnic reasons.
>

Not even vaguely true. Mostly it's been done for power & control reasons.

>
>>Where you are hoping to somehow make friends with the locals once the
>>fighting/war is over then forget it.
>
>
> Well now that depends, if you just go and their friends and family then yes
but
> if you torture the guys who have been oppressing the locals for the past 20
> years then perhaps not.. you certainly can't rely only on the word of those
who
> were tortured as to whether or not that is what is happening.
>

Yeah but like I say it becomes endemic. It ain't much of a leap to being in
the same situation as Saddam's Iraq where torture is a std police tactic.

The moment there is even tacit higher level/gov approval then it tends to mushroom.

Adam

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