We agree on just about everything up to here
and mostly after as well -  something I'm
pleased to see from a fellow poster, for a change.
What there is slight disagreement on is the 
following.

 TH
> I would say they are a PRODUCT of that environment
> at first. Can you disagree with this?

GH
I am not clear enough on what you mean by this to know whether we agree.
Dissipative systems are functional wholes that cannot be disentangled from
their environments without killing them.  So they cannot be "a PRODUCT of
that environment at first" if you think of them as separate from the
environment.  They build themselves under the material constraints of the
environment,

TH
No I don't think so. They are not independent enough
to build themselves. They are forced to react to an
environment - those whose reactions fit the environment
surve - those that don't, don't.

As Odum said, "Survival of those who fit". But if
the environment went down to absolute zero, or up to the inside of the sun,
there would be no 'self building' at all.
So there really is no independence outside of the
extremely narrow "Goldilocks zone' or temp zone, in life at all, IMO.



GH
 but the engine of construction is located inside. 

TH
Well gradually that is the case, but not at the first.
There are some elements that react to the environment
in a way that continue stability,. and other elements
that allow for variation - but the minute the heat stops so do all these.

GH
 Therefore,
self-organization cannot take place without the material contribution of the
environment, and without reflecting external contingencies that impact the
emerging system.  I'm not sure why you want to claim that "the designer"
resides outside of the system.  What makes a person fat -- their metabolic
processes or the food that the ate?
 >>

TH
The sun. 
Take it away and all else goes too.
Why do you want to have an independent designer?
That smacks of creationism or a psychologically
subconscious ego desire.  I think we need to step back
from our human psychology as best we can, and
when we do we see we are not separate but special  
- at all and neither is life.

GH
<< I don't see heat cycling alone as a sufficient explanation, because heat
cycling cannot happen in isolation.  Regarding OOL, heat cycles (and cycled)
at a point on the earth's surface because the earth rotates with regard to
the orientation of solar radiation.  The rotation takes that surface point
and moves it reiteratively under the energy rich region on the sunny side
and then the energy poor region of the dark side. >>

TH
But I didn't say heat - I said heat cycle which is
heat during the day, and cooling during the night..
So we agree here too.

(snipped)
GH
<< You did not comment on this bit.  Perhaps this was not the part you wanted
me to expand on in the first place. >>

TH
I'm afraid I didn't understand it.
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