++> Inspired by exchange between Keith Knapp
 ++> and  Frank Masingill on "SMART GREEKS"
 
 FM> KK> At some level I prefer [politicians] to philospher-kings;
 FM> KK> after all, Pla .....  _Republic_ is essentially a fascist system.
 
 FM> ...apologists for Plato say that he was only demonstrating that the
 FM> desired platform COULD be erected and was not impossible.
 FM> Moreover, Keith, it should always be kept in mind that Plato was
 FM> NOT a modern ideologist.  Even when democracy ran rampant the lot
 FM> of the masses wasn't THAT wonderful and if one sees as clearly
 FM> as Plato saw the coming destruction of the polis either by some
 FM> future Xerxes or Alexander the Great then drastic measures might
 FM> be called for even though Plato himself had made the decision not
 FM> to be involved in the actually affairs of State.
 
 KK> My reading of the 'democracy' in Athens is pretty superficial, but
 KK> several times I got the impression that it was the people who kept
 KK> pushing Athens into one disastrous war after another.  If this
 KK> is so, I dunno if it was out of an obsession with honor or glory
 KK> or tribal hatred or whatever.  But someone like Plato could have
 KK> made himself handy by getting up and saying "Look, you idiots,
 KK> this isn't the goddam Super Bowl, and it may involve the killing of
 KK> a lot of people, like Athenian people for example, and might I
 KK> encourage you all to meditate upon that ancient Greek word Hubris,
 KK> etc."  
 
  It is doubtful that a 2500 year old (short) democratic experience
  with an "end near" co-historical hostile ideologue philosopher that
  was more a Benedict Arnold-ish figure, can be entertained in any
  20th century sense, not laughable. He could not speak to the population
  as he saw them essentially as dirt (however much he squeezes them
  conveniently into his words). Clever brilliant, he was first and
  foremost (descended from kings) aware of his class ....a class that
  never really liked the idea or practice of Democracy ...or work!
  ...though they did earlier support the democracy until it became
  too costly (for them).  Had Plato been born earlier; and it been
  up to him, there might never have been a Greek Democratic experience
  for us to play from history. He was actually born too late to
  appreciate the short but Athenian golden age of Pericles, and would
  NOT have understood it if he had (Plato may have had a class
  oriented attitude problem!) ......along with his pal Socrates
  (essentially a traitor to Athens though oft cleaned up, especially
  by Plato). Plato DID try out his theories of government in two failed
  efforts. His childhood friend and student (Dionysus Jr) became tyrant
  of Syracuse (city-ish state on the S.E. coast of Sicily) and agreed
  to Republican-ish experiments. Mostly speculative as to actuality,
  Plato twice attempted to spur the effort, then moved back to Athens
  to teach (mumbling to himself that fine words were not always workable
  ...that teaching was much safer and easier).
 
                           00 ... Dave
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