To: 
From: "Vern Humphrey" 
Reply-To: r_catholic-l{at}yahoogroups.com

To: seanmbrook{at}aol.com [mailto:seanmbrook{at}aol.com]
> >
> > VH> In a large enough group, you'll find someone who eats
> chicken litter and
> > bays at the moon.  But that's not a characteristic of the whole group.
> > > > >
>  Certainly.  But, you may be at risk of sometimes being
>  too optimistic. That is, we need to take into account how
>  a small but determined minority can change history.  A
>  classic example being how a small faction of Bolsheviks
>  led by Lenin managed to seize power in Russia despite
>  the hostility that most Russians of Left and Right alike
>  had for them.

Remember, though, most Russians were NOT satisfied with the Russian
government, nor with their lives under it.

Most Mexican-Americans ARE satisfied.  America is their dream, not their nightmare.
> > >
> > VH> No, I don't think it's WANTING to destroy Israel, it's
> NEEDING to have a
> > victory.  Think about Israeli security, and then think about Palestinian
> > security in the same breath.
> >
>  Yes, but in what FORM is this need for a Pali "victory"
>  over Israel expressed?  Answer, the destruction of Israel.

No, not at all.  A state of their own would be a great victory.

But if they cannot HAVE a state, if they are blocked from that goal, and
they see no hope, then other goals emerge.

By the way, if a man called Israelis "Izzies" in debate, would
you say that showed even-handed respect for Israel?
>
> > VH> Most Palestinians never knew a time when they weren't being
> attacked or
> > occupied by Israel.  They find it difficult to put aside the hatred and
> > accept that they can live at peace with those who occupied them.
> >
>  True.  From the Pali POV.

Palistinians, by definition, have a Palestinian Point of View.
>
> > VH> The Israelis have the same problem with regard the Palestinians --
> > except
> > they see terrorism, rather than miliary conquest, occupation
> and so on as
> > the cause.
> > >
>  Plus, I'm sure many Israelis argue that it's Pali
>  terrorism which prevents Israel from withdrawing
>  from the West Bank/Gaza.
>
>  Altho it would be a lot easier to do so without fearing
>  a serious loss of face except for those settlements!
>
And, as we have discussed here, it is loss of FACE, not loss of security
that rules.  With no settlements, Israel would be MORE, not less, secure.
>


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