>>> Todd Henson on Order 
 TH> Once a person can understand that the uninverse is infinite, and that
 TH> the cause of the universe, which for simplicity's sake I will call the
 TH> Origin, is something which is without beginning and without end, we
 TH> can take our understanding of cause and effect and examine the order of
 TH> the universe.
 
 WE> Your 'Origin' is not the big bang origin.
 TH> Never said it was or wasn't - you really haven't been following.
I have, the Big Bang has a beginning ergo, it's not your beginningless 
rigin.
 
 WE> In the first instances of the big bang, it is conjectured that the
 WE> laws of physics did not yet apply. 
 TH> ...in their current form. In order for the big bang, or something
 TH> similar, to happen there had to have been some laws/properties/etc to
 TH> allow such to even take place.
Nope, as affirmed such laws wouldn't apply.
 
  WE> I think that order and disorder are perceptions of our mind.
 TH> What meaning does that statement have?
Whatever your mind perceives
 
 WE> Of interest to your theme is the notion of self organizing systems.
 TH> Indeed, seeing as how every aspect of reality has a cause, if the the
 TH> Origin had absolutely no order at all, then order would never have
 TH> existed in our reality. 
Seems you claim conservation of order.  That the total order of the universe 
is constant, that order can neither be destroyed nor created.
 WE> The Origin is the cause of the universe.  The Origin is an aspect of
 WE> reality.  So the Origin has a cause.  But this is a puzzle, how
 WE> something that never had a beginning can be caused. 
 TH> I have already at length explained that early on in the thread.
I'm still puzzled.
... Alas, immortality is not biodegradable.
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