TH> Once a person can understand that the uninverse is infinite, and that
 TH> the cause of the universe, which for simplicity's sake I will call the
 TH> Origin, is something which is without beginning and without end, we
 TH> can take our understanding of cause and effect and examine the order of
 TH> the universe.
 WE> Your 'Origin' is not the big bang origin.
Never said it was or wasn't - you really haven't been following.
 TH> Let us consider the fact that the universe has order. It operates by,
 TH> and is literally defined by the laws that we can easily observe. So,
 TH> this would indicate that the Origin also has order, because everything
 TH> has a cause - the universe and the laws that govern it had a cause.
 WE> In the first instances of the big bang, it is conjectured that the
 WE> laws of physics did not yet apply. 
...in their current form. In order for the big bang, or something similar,
to happen there had to have been some laws/properties/etc to allow such
to even take place.
 TH> Some will say that order quite often comes out of the disorder of
 TH> chaotic systems and would deny my claims. But, the limited amount of
 TH> seemingly ordered behavior that sometimes comes from seemingly
 TH> disordely sources is not a case of order from disorder at all. The
 TH> behavior of an ordered pattern emerging out of disorder is a phenomenon
 TH> that is governed by the *ordered* laws of physics which govern the
 TH> behavior of the universe in the first place. 
 WE> I think that order and disorder are perceptions of our mind.
What meaning does that statement have?
 WE> Of interest to your theme is the notion of self organizing systems.
 
 TH> Indeed, seeing as how every aspect of reality has a cause, if the the
 TH> Origin had absolutely no order at all, then order would never have
 TH> existed in our reality. 
 WE> Wish I knew more about self organizing systems, I'd be able to run
 WE> this conjecture thru some interesting hoops.  As it is I can apply
 WE> some fish swallowing it's tail paradoxes from math. 
 WE> The Origin is the cause of the universe.  The Origin is an aspect of
 WE> reality.  So the Origin has a cause.  But this is a puzzle, how
 WE> something that never had a beginning can be caused. 
I have already at length explained that early on in the thread.
 TH> The ordered phenomenon of this universe came from
 TH> the ordered nature of the pre-existing infinite Origin. 
 WE> How does the big bang scenario fit into this.  Is there anything to be
 WE> inferred by capitalizing the infinite Origin?  Is 'the Big Bang'
 WE> current usage? 
How does the BB fit into this? My man, you really haven't been following at
all. Explaining things via email is all I can do - the rest is up to you.
... Blue Wave - World Tour - 1998
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