TH> Once a person can understand that the uninverse is infinite, and ... 
And, if I disagree, that the universe is *not* infinite, albeit, 
at this time rather indefinite, but agreed, very large?  Then of 
course, your conclusions don't follow. 
 
 TH> Let us consider the fact that the universe has order. It operates by, 
 TH> and 
 TH> is literally defined by the laws that we can easily observe. So, this 
 TH> would 
 TH> indicate that the Origin also has order, because everything has a 
 TH> cause - the universe and the laws that govern it had a cause. 
 
 
 TH> Some will say that order quite often comes out of the disorder of 
 TH> chaotic 
 TH> systems and would deny my claims. But, the limited amount of seemingly 
 TH> ordered 
 TH> behavior that sometimes comes from seemingly disordely sources is not 
 TH> a case 
 TH> of order from disorder at all. The behavior of an ordered pattern 
 TH> emerging out 
 TH> of disorder is a phenomenon that is governed by the *ordered* laws of 
 TH> physics 
 TH> which govern the behavior of the universe in the first place. 
Todd, there have been a number of experiments on the way order 
breaks down into Chaos and vice-versus. I see the two as yin/yang 
but do not see how 'order' can *ever* produce chaos or randomness 
such as we are all witness to.  Still, without *some* order, we 
would never evolve to see Chaos in the second place. 
 
 TH> We have random behavior of matter because of inertia. Matter does not 
 TH> have 
 TH> a mind, nor volition. It simply reacts according to whatever forces 
 TH> are acting 
 TH> upon it, in a natural manner, all according to the consistent 
 TH> (orderly) laws of physics. 
There is considerable experimentation in quantum physics Todd, to 
show that matter does not *always* behave in a 'natural manner'. 
The whole problem for the quantum mechanic is that under a few 
conditions, matter is *not* 'consistent' and '(orderly)'. 
 
 TH> In short terms, the laws that govern flake-making are inherently 
 TH> ordered 
 TH> to the effect of creating an ordered arrangement. However, to create a 
 TH> snowflake naturally is one thing, to have an IBM computer "form 
 TH> naturally" 
 TH> is beyond the scope of physics. There are limits, and that is the 
 TH> embodiment of inertia. 
If it were as orderly as you say, all flakes would be identical. 
 
 TH>.... So, if order never existed 
 TH> within the Origin, then it would have never been imparted to this 
 TH> reality. 
I hold that Chaos existed *before* order, and that it in fact, is 
still with us, along with it's two progeny- God (order) and the 
Universe... the *Original* Trinity. 
 
The 6502 CPU in the original Apple had a random number generator. 
When I tried to port some code to a PC, I ran into a little bit 
of a problem, in that no such algorythm was on the 8088. Here I 
had a system that was completely ordered, with gonzo more power 
to use, but I could not verify that I would always get a random 
number out of it. 
 
My solution was to read the time, in milliseconds, between the 
user's keystrokes.  Which works, but is fundamentally *outside* 
of the 8088 operating system.  This is the kind of problem you 
have trying to make Chaos out of order. 
 
But to go the *other* way, to make order out of Chaos, is very 
simple if you have enough time, and Chaos has forever. 
___ 
 * OFFLINE 1.58 
--- Maximus 3.01
---------------