On 02-02-98 David Martorana wrote to Day Brown... 
 DM>   What reasons might I give myself to believe that anyone 
 DM>   in history has achieved a knowing of our reality beyond 
 DM>   that little presented by science? You have expended many 
 DM>   words of wager and speculation, but not one that would 
 DM>   satisfy ....either of us                      ......yes? 
 DM>   
 DM>   DB> Published since his death have been reports of psychedelic 
 DM>   DB> herbs and mushrooms that were used by these pre-historic 
 DM>   DB> shamen. Thus, I conclude, that they too, had ab-normal 
 DM>   DB> minds to conceptualize, and deal with, these limits. 
 DM>   
 DM>   Do we need separate the induced illusions of knowing from the 
 DM>   humorous "realies" that remain behind? I have many times brought 
 DM>   back epic material from twilight dreams only to find it nonsense- 
 DM>   .....melting as the strength of iron ice into dripping water. 
Nonsense? Indeed, that vast majority of the dreams and visions in 
a shaman mind full of interesting alkaloids are, as you suggest, 
nonsense.  But... there are a few ideas which, on further sober 
cogitation later,... reveal truth. 
 
And truth has a habit of persisting in the mind, and tends to be 
seen in subsequent generations of minds similarly affected which 
come to the same conclusion.  Campbell's mythology books show the 
similarity of conception across several millennia and thousands 
of miles between cultural sites. 
 
One of my arguments supporting the existence of God is the fact 
that virtually all of the famous ancient philosophers said that 
God existed.  Either they were *all* wrong, or the idea is.  A 
decent respect for the cognative powers of these, and the shamen 
trying to make sense of their experiences seems reasonable. 
 
DB> 'Science' involves experiment or experience, and cogitation of 
DB> the data to draw conclusions.  Our culture has a pejorative way 
DB> of looking at any alteration of consciousness, either chemical, 
DB> or by sensory deprivation, such as meditation.  This culture is 
DB> so permeated with Christian attitudes, that it does not realize 
DB> that this pejorative view of a psychedelic experience is part 
DB> of the Judaic/Christian dogma. 
 DM>      Though I have a warm feeling for non science knowing, AND enjoy 
 DM>      it in a hedonistic sense, the inconsistency of the experience 
 DM>      is difficult to make universal. In the private of my own inner 
 DM>      pleasures, I can soar through being, any notions of truth most 
 DM>      malleable to the skill and talents of my reach and measure of 
 DM>      imagination. Either of us employing "ENHANCEMENTS", more likely 
 DM>      intensifies some elements of such private realities while 
 DM>      neutralizing others.   .....goodness! I once smoked ovals! 
Yeah I tried en once too.  But, in any case, what we are talking 
about is the experience of the drug, and then rational thinking 
to organize the experience into some system.  You may not have 
been lucky enough to see a way to integrate your experience with 
drugs with your experience without them, but at least, it would 
be hard to argue that such integration is not possible.  I assert 
that it is, that I am not all that unique in having done so; but 
that nevertheless see that some minds will not be convinced. that 
is the way the cookie crumbles. 
 
 DM>  DB> Because, if you get it, you may, as acid heads often do, discard 
 DM>  DB> old relationships, responsibilities, and enthralled with the 
 DM>  DB> visions, set a new order of priorities to your life. 
 DM>   
 DM>      For an individual to expand (or retreat) into a private reality 
 DM>      probably makes little difference to our species. Through history 
 DM>      there have been many such monkish meanderings, more religious 
 DM>      in the earlier days. If they did find some passage into "other" 
 DM>      dimensions or knowings, not much credible was left behind to 
 DM>      guide or enrich others? 
Well, it is not only a private reality David.  Nor, were all of 
the ideas concepts of sublime understanding.  The Greeks usta do 
some wondering where ideas came from, seeing how useful they are. 
There usta be the idea that the Muses could be encouraged by the 
use of drugs, and the explosion of rock music with drugs seems to 
bear this out, as well as the behavior of artists to push limits 
ever further in pursuit of the Muse... sometimes fatally. 
 
But consider the Chalcolithic culture which had many psychedelic 
mushrooms as sacred altar ware, and what practical ideas arose at 
the same time the culture flowered: fired pottery, bronze, draft 
animals, the wheel, and woven cloth... *all* were developed by an 
ancient Aryan bunch of stoners. 
 
 DM>  DB> The 'primitive' cultures uniformly had the young man, *before* 
 DM>  DB> he had established these responsibilities, undertake a vision 
 DM>  DB> quest, often with psychedelic drugs, and allowed him time to 
 DM>  DB> digest the experience later. 
 DM>   
 DM>       We have little data to entertain notions of gain or loss from 
 DM>       tribal visioning. Probably good for a few/bad for a few & OK 
 DM>       for the rest. 
Well I give you this David: that the solitary experience, whether 
drugs or deprevation, or whatever was used, was still valuable as 
a means of confronting the reality of the 'self' without feedback 
from the group always making the determination. 
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 * OFFLINE 1.58 
--- Maximus 3.01
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