Perplexed in Peoria  wrote or quoted:
> "Tim Tyler"  wrote in message
> > Perplexed in Peoria  wrote or quoted:

> > > However, in a weak defense of all three of us, that is Tyler's thread,
> > > devoted to discussing Tyler's essay, and I believe that Tyler is
> > > already aware that Wilkins and Moran disapprove of the title, and
> > > that I disapprove of the thermodynamics.
> > >
> > > As it happens, I am also in disapproval of the title, though for
> > > a slightly different reason than Wilkins and Moran.  To explain
> > > this, it is convenient to use a theological metaphor.  Tim
> > > seems to be espousing an intentional Gaia, or at least a teleomatic
> > > Gaia.  I believe that we need to postulate a distinct goddess for
> > > each species, perhaps with Gaia reigning over them.  The specific
> > > goddesses are fully intentional in my use of the word, with the goal
> > > of maximizing the average individual fitness.  But, I am not
> > > sure that Gaia can be characterized telos-wise at all.  There
> > > certainly doesn't seem to me to be any teleonomy, and I have yet
> > > to see a coherent teleomatic characterization.

[...]

> > Why don't I make much use of "maximising fitness" in my
> > characterisations of biological progress?  That's what Jim
> > seems to favour, above.
> 
> You have misinterpreted.  I only mentioned "maximizing fitness"
> to avoid backsliding in my debate with Wilkins.

;-)

> I understand that you are talking about something different.  You
> claim to see a direction for life-as-a-whole, for the biosphere,
> for "Gaia".  I recognize that my puny species-level direction
> is related only indirectly to what you are talking about.
> 
> And I would have no issue with what you are saying, if you had
> entitled it "Life's Prospect", or "Life's Future", or even
> "Life's Destiny".  Your speculations are interesting, they are
> plausible, and while my speculations might be different, yours
> are as well based as anything I might come up with.
> 
> My only complaint would be with your use of the word "direction".

It sounds like our disagreement is no big deal, then ;-)

> This seems to imply that you are talking about a continuation
> of a trend which has been present since life's inception.  But,
> to a large extent, you are not.  In particular, the predictions
> you make in numbered section 1, [snipped!] above, are a whole new 
> "direction" for life.

I like to see the whole process up until a few million years ago
as the aftermath of the origin of life.  In other words as life's
early stages of development.

To me it makes sense when attempting to characterise living systems
(and evolution as a whole) to look at the adult form.

IMO, that's /got/ to include intelligent design, genetic engineering,
i.e. the whole kit and caboodle of the toolbox available to living 
systems.

Looking back at life's childhood is all very well - but it's a bit
like discussing the caterpillar without mentioning the butterfly.

> I'm not objecting to the idea that the appearance of culture
> may change the direction - it well might.  I am only objecting
> to the suggestion that, if you just look at it right, this is
> really a continuation of the true, energy-dissipating direction
> that was established long ago.  I've tried looking at it like
> that, and I just don't see what you do.

What about considering things in terms of technological accumulation?

Once living systems knew nothing about photosynthesis, haemoglobin, 
nitrogen fixation, the Krebs cycle, cellulose, legs, digestive 
systems, immune systems, nervous systems, social behaviour, sex, 
cooperation, mate choice, nuclear power, space travel - and many
other features of modern organisms.

It learned about these things slowly, painfully - and progressively -
over an extended period of time.

The accumulation of technological information may have started
accelerating dramatically in modern times - but it is part of a
process of technological accumulation that has been going on for
billions of years - and is only just beginning to reach critical
mass.
-- 
__________
 |im |yler  http://timtyler.org/  tim{at}tt1lock.org  Remove lock to reply.
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