Hello Todd.
 TH> Once a person can understand that the uninverse is infinite, and that
 TH> the cause of the universe, which for simplicity's sake I will call the
 TH> Origin, is something which is without beginning and without end, we
 TH> can take our understanding of cause and effect and examine the order
 TH> of the universe.
Those "understandings" (assumptions?) are a lot to swallow.
Do you have arguments which establish the truth of these propositions?
 TH> Let us consider the fact that the universe has order. It operates by,
 TH> and is literally defined by the laws that we can easily observe. So,
 TH> this would indicate that the Origin also has order, because everything
 TH> has a cause - the universe and the laws that govern it had a cause.
Does Universe have order, or do only our perceptions of Universe have order?
All we really know is sense data, and our interpretations of that sense data.
There is (apparently) no guarantee that either of those are accurate models 
of Universe.  Also, even if Universe has order now, why would that be true of 
the beginning of Universe (if there was a beginning)?
 TH> Some will say that order quite often comes out of the disorder of
 TH> chaotic systems and would deny my claims. But, the limited amount of
 TH> seemingly ordered behavior that sometimes comes from seemingly
 TH> disordely sources is not a case of order from disorder at all. The
 TH> behavior of an ordered pattern emerging out of disorder is a
 TH> phenomenon that is governed by the *ordered* laws of physics which
 TH> govern the behavior of the universe in the first place.
The ordered laws of physics are a model invented by physicists in an attempt 
to fit sense data.  Even if the models accurately predict sense data in the 
lab, it's a significant leap to claim that Universe (which allegedly induces 
sense data) always acts according to the models.
 TH> We have random behavior of matter because of inertia. Matter does not
 TH> have a mind, nor volition. It simply reacts according to whatever
 TH> forces are acting upon it, in a natural manner, all according to the
 TH> consistent (orderly) laws of physics.
Do you have arguments which establish the truth of these propositions?
(randomness from inertia, lack of mind in matter, accuracy of physical 
models..)
 TH> A deck of cards will never magically jump up and self-create a
 TH> delicate card house, nor will it do so over time. The cards will stay
 TH> there in the deck because of the orderly and consistent nature of the
 TH> laws of physics.
Do you have knowledge of all future events?  What is "magic"?  Most magical 
texts I have seen suggest that "magic" is the skewing of causality by acts of 
consciousness, so it would seem that the adverb "magically" does not really 
apply here.
 TH> Water droplets can freeze into snowflakes and create wonderful angled
 TH> and ordered patterns, all by themselves. Is this a case of order out
 TH> of random disorder? No. The ordered and structured laws that govern
 TH> the behavior of small freezing droplets of the particular
 TH> configuration of H20 are in place, before the snowflake ever forms, in
 TH> an ordered fashion. Indeed, these laws were in effect at the very
 TH> creation of this universe, before there ever were any snowflakes
 TH> formed.
Do you have an argument which establishes the truth of the proposition that 
the models of physics accurately described Universe at its "beginning" (if 
there was one)?
 TH> In short terms, the laws that govern flake-making are inherently
 TH> ordered to the effect of creating an ordered arrangement. However, to
 TH> create a snowflake naturally is one thing, to have an IBM computer
 TH> "form naturally" is beyond the scope of physics. There are limits, and
 TH> that is the embodiment of inertia.
There are limits, according to the models generated by physicists and others.
 TH> Indeed, seeing as how every aspect of reality has a cause,
Disputed.
 TH> if the the Origin had absolutely no order at all, then order would
 TH> never have existed in our reality.
Also disputed, seems like a non-sequiter.
 TH> It is similar to what was stated before, that if absolutely nothing
 TH> at all ever existed, then nothing ever would.
See previous.
 TH> So, if order never existed within the Origin, then it would have
 TH> never been imparted to this reality.
You're repeating yourself.  So will I.  Disputed.
 TH> Indeed, without order to even define what a continuum IS, to even
 TH> define that a continuum exists, there couldn't even BE a reality.
Disputed.
 TH> So, order in the universe indicates that the Origin itself posesses
 TH> order and the ability to transmit that order into the finite
 TH> realities that spawn from it. The ordered phenomenon of this universe
 TH> came from the ordered nature of the pre-existing infinite Origin.
You can probably guess what my reaction is.
Take care.
Mr. Rigor
--- GoldED 2.50+
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