"John Edser"  wrote in message
news:cd6evv$k14$1{at}darwin.ediacara.org...
> > JM:-
> > My interpretation is that he thought you asked: "Does the
> > rule discriminate between altruism and mutualism?  That
> > is, is there some hidden mechanism in the rule that
> > "notices" a difference between a positive c (i.e. a
> > decrease in absolute fitness, indicating altruism)
> > and a negative c (i.e. an increase in absolute
> > fitness, indicating mutualism)?"
> > My interpretation is that he answered: "No, there
> > is no discrimination between these two situations
> > within the rule.  The rule handles both cases without
> > discriminating.
>
> JE:-
> The rule must do much more than just "notice",
> "a difference between a positive c (i.e. a
> decrease in absolute fitness, indicating altruism)
> and a negative c (i.e. an increase in absolute
> fitness, indicating mutualism)" it must be
> able to _measure_ a difference beween them.
> Clearly, if it cannot measure any difference
> between them then the rule is biologically
> meaningless even if it makes mathematical
> sense.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Do you agree or disagree that
> the rule cannot measure any difference between
> them?
> _______________________________________________
> >snip<
[snip discussion of differences between Newton and Darwin.
 John makes a valid point that relative position in Newton
 is not really comparable to relative fitness in Darwin,
 because absolute position in Newton is arbitrary, whereas
 absolute fitness in Darwin is not.  Snipped, because it is
 not relevant here - though it may be relevant elsewhere.]

> JE:-
> Here is my main proposition:
> ___________________________________________________
> Box A
> IF the rule cannot MEASURE any difference
> between "a positive c (i.e. a
> decrease in absolute fitness, indicating altruism)
> and a negative c (i.e. an increase in absolute
> fitness, indicating mutualism)" THEN the rule
> is MISUSED when it is employed to measure
> when organism fitness altruism (OFA) can evolve.
> __________________________________________________

Ok, before I agree or disagree, let me make sure that both
I and John understand what is being said.  "c" is already
a difference, so we are talking about the difference between
two differences.  That is, define A1, A2, A3, A4, c1, c2, and D
as follows:

A1 = absolute fitness of an organism if it acts altruistically
A2 = absolute fitness of that organism if it does not act altruistically
c1 (the positive c) = A2 - A1
A3 = absolute fitness of a (different?) organism if it acts mutualistically
A4 = absolute fitness of that organism if it does not act mutualistically
c2 = (the negative c) A4 - A3
D (the difference that MUST(?) be measured) = c1 - c2
  = A2 - A1 - A4 + A3

Do I have that right, John?  You claim that it is clear that if this
quantity D cannot be MEASURED by a rule, then the rule is biologically
meaningless.  Hmmm.  I suspect you are wrong, John.  It is NOT clear,
at least not to me.  Perhaps you can clarify.

However, assuming that I understand you, I can answer your "agree or
disagree" question.  I agree.  The rule cannot measure the difference
between two c's - it only deals with one c at a time.

Also, I have a quibble regarding the wording of Box A.  You write
"the rule is MISUSED when it is employed to measure when organism
fitness altruism (OFA) can evolve".  I think you would agree that
it would have been better to write "... to PREDICT when OFA can evolve".
And, in any case, I remain very unconvinced regarding your proposition
in Box A.

And finally, a suggestion:  Instead of making grand pronouncements
as to what an evolutionary rule must or must not do, why not focus
on one rule - Hamilton's - and try to understand what it says and the
logic behind it.  I am pretty sure that if you only stopped attacking
what you believe to be its ambitions and motivations, and instead
focused on what it actually says and how it justifies itself, this
whole thing could be resolved, or at least clarified.
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