-=> Quoting Jim Casto to Robin Arnhold <=-
Hi, Jim,
 
 RA> Reading the newsgroups is actually more in the way of
 RA> recreation for me.  If it seemed too much like 'work', I'd probably
 RA> move on to something that provided more relaxation.
 JC> 
 JC> That's why I retired.  Someone asked me once why I never became a
 JC> professional musician. I said: "Because I enjoy it too much." 
I love music--from the spectator end, since my talents in that direction
are pretty much on the level of singing in the shower.  Do you sing or
play an instrument?  What types of music are you interested in?
 
 RA> I think the implication is that these particular children were judged
 RA> as lacking in the ability to learn.
 JC> 
 JC> Sounds like a defensive mechanism kicking in. The etacher can't find
 JC> a way to "teach", so it now becomes the child's problem in not being
 JC> able to learn. 
Institutionalized idiocy of the type so many in this country cling to...
Back when my mother was still working, they had a Mexican girl who
couldn't speak a word of English.  The school system was a small one in
northern Wisconsin and didn't quite know what to do, so they put Maria in
the library with my mother.  Mother does not speak a word of Spanish
beyond 'Buenos dias' and '?Donde esta el bano?'.  However, Mother managed
to teach Maria enough English to get by and normal social interaction
with the other kids was enough to get her really proficient.
 RA> Certainly they were placed in a
 RA> special education class and not in a class to teach them English as a
 RA> second language.
 JC> 
 JC> Note that I put the word "official" in quotation marks. I don't know
 JC> a lot about Switzerland, but I suspect that ALL documentation and ALL
 JC> literature is NOT written in four languages. For example Encarta '97
 JC> says that the "more imnportant (literatures are) German-Swiss and
 JC> French-Swiss". If all languages were treated equally "offical" ALL
 JC> literature would be printed in ALL languages. Is ALL government
 JC> business (in their Federal Council, Federal Tribunal, and Federal
 JC> Assembly conducted in all four official languages.
I'm not sure, either, but...
 
 JC> Encarta '97 also says that schools are conducted in the language of
 JC> the local canton, but that students can learn other languages if they
 JC> want to. 
I understand that most Europeans are bilingual, probably something to do
with the number of languages one encounters in a relatively small
geographical area.  A friend of mine who couldn't find a job teaching
Spanish here ended up taking a job teaching English in the German school
system.  He ended up completely proficient in German and French as well
as his native English and Spanish.  I suspect that most Swiss speak both
German and French (or at least, the Swiss versions thereof).
 JC> (playing 'devil's advocate here) Assuming the Spanish-speakers in
 JC> your "canton" are in the minority, which makes more sense? They learn
 JC> to "cope" in English or the majority learn Spanish? Or just how many
 JC> languages do you propose the documents to be printed in?
It depends on how customer-friendly one wants to be.  Several state
agencies here print things in Vietnamese, Laotian, and Hmong as well as
English and Spanish.  It is logical to say that those who speak a
minority language 'should' learn the language of the majority, especially
if they need to have substantive dealings with the majority, but I really
hesitate to say that the minority has to or be damned.  After hearing
Native American friends say that they or their parents were beaten in
school for speaking their native languages, the only languages they knew,
and after having heard Elders apologize for being unable to pray properly
in their native language because they were beaten every time they tried
to speak it, it really twists my insides into knots to say that those who
speak a minority language must learn the language of the majority.
 
 JC> Brings to mind our bus/mass transit system... There are a lot of
 JC> Spanish speakers that ride the bus in/from my area. Should they be
 JC> expected to know enough English to use this system or should all the
 JC> drivers be bi-lingual. 
It doesn't really take too much English (or any other language, for that
matter) to use a bus if the bus company has any wits about it.  Pictoral
items like maps transcend language barriers.  If map shows the route and
major buildings on the route and the route is designated by a number or
letter, one should be reasonably successful at getting around.  My mother
and I did it in Europe.
 
 RA> Depends on what kind of test it is.  My two years of high school
 RA> Spanish 35 years ago is very rusty, but I can more or less muddle
 RA> through nonspecialized Spanish.
 JC> 
 JC> At the local supermarket there is a rack of magazines (some are
 JC> national titles like "Time" and/or "Newsweek" (I don't pay that much
 JC> attention so I can't give you the Spanish titles.) Also the local
 JC> paper prints a Spanish insert, but I can guarantee you that the insert
 JC> is not a _total_ translation of the newspaper. No cartoons, for
 JC> example. 
We don't see that as much here, although there is a newsstand near the
university where one can buy foreign-language publications and there are
weekly columns in the newspaper in Spanish.  In some respects Madison
remains stubbornly Midwest in spite of having a very large foreign
population from every corner of the globe.  We do much better at
providing traditional foods from around the world, including frozen TV
dinners imported from India.
 RA> Ah, but in France they love it if one makes an effort to speak
 RA> French
 RA> and will go out of their way to be helpful if one does make that
 RA> effort. 
 JC> 
 JC> That was _definitely_ NOT my experience.
I'm sorry to hear that.  I understand a lot of people have had the same
experience.  I honestly can't say why my experience was different except,
possibly, that I'm female and for some reason, the French seemed to like
my clothes.  Go figure.  
 
 RA> Well, since Quebec is still a part of Canada and Canada is officially
 RA> a bilingual country, yes, they are obligated to have their highway
 RA> signs in both French and English.  However, since Quebec thumbs its
 RA> nose at the rest of Canada and likely wouldn't use the pictoral signs
 RA> used in Europe, it would be a real good idea to understand things such
 RA> as 'lente' and 'arret' before driving there.
 JC> 
 JC> Or simply avoid Quebec.
 
They have certainly developed a hostility to nonfrancophones in recent
years, if I may make an understatement!  It wasn't like this years ago.
I can remember a vacation we spent there when I was 8.  We stopped in
this little restaurant in the middle of nowhere.  It wasn't particularly
busy, just a few 'locals'.  The people there seemed to take great delight
in teaching me how to order a hot dog in French.
 
 JC> BTW, the "discussion group" on another "service" I might have
 JC> mentioned to you or Sondra has decided NOT to read/discuss "Indian
 JC> Killer" as it might be construed to be too "anti-white" and "angry".
 JC> They are going to read and discuss "Reservation Blues" instead. 
They might do well to think about why some of the characters express
"anti-white" sentiments.  I frankly thought it portrayed contemporary
Native opinion very accurately, if not always completely (meaning that
there are other opinions and there is a limit to the number of characters
with different mindsets one can have in a book without creating
chaos--also, there's sort of a minimalism in Alexie's writing.  He can
create a character or scene with relatively few words.).
Take care,
Robin
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20
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