"Perplexed in Peoria"  wrote:

> > GH:-
> > Let me try to break it down for you.  Here is the conventional
> > wisdom, as I see it
> > 1) Natural selection is the only natural process we know of 
> > that can lead to
> > adaptive change.

> JM:
> But this is a straw man.  No one AFAICS claims this. 


JE:-
It is not a "straw man" and I claim it.
Example: the view that sampling error can
alone cause evolution is an iron
man (after the iron rice bowl)
i.e. cannot be tested.

> JM:-
> However, modify the
> wording to read that NS is the only process that can lead to heritable
> adaptive change within populations and you might find many of the 
> "conventionally
> wise" willing to endorse the assumption.

JE:-
The only testable to refutation cause we
have for evolution is Darwinian natural
selection.


> > GH:-
> > 2) One kind of adaptation that can be evolved through natural 
> > selection is
> > adaptive phenotypic plasticity to allow contingent adaptive 
> > changes within
> > the life of an organism.

>JM:
> Agreed.

> > 3) There are many mechanisms of adaptive phenotypic plasticity 
> > that can be
> > honed by natural selection which do not involve natural 
> > selection within the
> > organism.

> JM:-
> Agreed.

JE:-
They involve the Darwinian selection of 
the entire Darwinian organism (fertile form).

> > GH:-
> > INCONSISTENCY:  If there are mechanisms of adaptive change that can be
> > manifested within organisms, then natural selection IS NOT the 
> > only process
> > we know of that can lead to adaptive change!  In other words, 
> > #3 invalidates
> > #1.

> JM:-
> Agreed.  Your argument invalidates the straw man.  It has 
> absolutely no impact
> on the conventional wisdom that I think exists.

JE:-
No, it involves the Darwinian selection of 
the entire Darwinian organism (fertile form).

> > GH:-
> > MY POSITION:  We should drop assumption #1 and explore the 
> > possibility that
> > there are mechanisms other than natural selection that account for
> > biological adaptations.

> JM:-
> Certainly the strawman should be dropped.  And your "explore the 
> possibility"
> is a massive understatement. 

JE:-
You appear to be substituting your
supposed "straw man" with an known 
iron man (a non testable concept).


> JM:-
> We KNOW that there are 
> non-selective mechanisms
> involved in individual adaptive response, and we ARE studying them.

JE:-
Please list them.

> > GH:-
> > THE IRRELEVANCE OF THE RESPONSE:  I claim that the response 
> > above by Chris
> > and many others is irrelevant because saying that adaptive phenotypic
> > plasticity is a consequence of natural selection fails to address the
> > central point that other mechanisms of adaptive change (those inside of
> > organisms) EXIST.

JE:-
Incorrect. Saying that "that adaptive phenotypic
plasticity is a consequence of natural selection"
only sets a _limit_ to what "other mechanisms of 
adaptive  change (those inside of organisms)" 
can be validly suggested to be able to do and 
how they may evolve.

Regards,

John Edser
Independent Researcher

PO Box 266
Church Pt
NSW 2105
Australia

edser{at}tpg.com.au
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