On 17 Feb 2021 at 10:51:37 GMT, The Natural Philosopher 
wrote:

> On 16/02/2021 19:15, TimS wrote:
>>  On 16 Feb 2021 at 12:18:41 GMT, Pancho 
>>  wrote:
>>
>>>  On 16/02/2021 11:01, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>>    On 16/02/2021 10:56, Pancho wrote:
>>>>>    On 16/02/2021 10:39, Nikolaj Lazic wrote:
>>>>>>    Dana Tue, 16 Feb 2021 09:28:39 +0000, Joe 
napis'o:
>>>>>>>    On Tue, 16 Feb 2021 08:17:53 -0000 (UTC)
>>>>>>>    Nikolaj Lazic  wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>    Dana Tue, 16 Feb 2021 02:24:59 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
>>>>>>>>     napis'o: [snip]
>>>>>>>>>    But what do you mean by 'editor'
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>    I wouldn't use it to write a book in.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>    Why not?
>>>>>>>>    Even vim is enought to write any book in LaTeX.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>    You could probably do that in Edlin.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>    But there's a big difference between 'enough' and 'I would use it by
>>>>>>>    preference'.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    But I do prefere vim and I do prefere LaTeX for anything that needs
to
>>>>>>    look right... as a proper document or a book.
>>>>>>    And yes, I do prefere keyboard over mouse. :) It's faster!
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>    Yes, we all know a proper vi user uses h j k l instead of cursors, so
>>>>>    they don't move their fingers from the touch typing default position.
>>>>>
>>>>>    Back in 1995 the team I worked on was allowed to switch c++
>>>>>    development from unix/vi to the Microsoft C++ IDE, pretty much
>>>>>    everyone switched.
>>>>>
>>>>    back in the day we could either edit in vi on the PDP 11, or use
>>>>    wordstar on DOS and upload the code for compilations. I don't think
>>>>    anyone worked in vi from choice except for minor mods.
>>>>    I cant remember how we uploaded the code either - there was certainly
no
>>>>    TCP/IP - must have been over serial.
>>>
>>>  One of the guys I worked with wrote an emacs like editor for DEC, when
>>>  we moved from VMS to ultrix/sparcs he used vi, even after he got a unix
>>>  port of his editor.
>>>
>>>  The funny thing coding full time with vi is that my fingers didn't
>>>  forget it even after decades of not using it. I found it hard to
>>>  verbalise the keys I was using but my fingers just seemed to know.
>>
>>  Daer oh dear. Hopeless, isn't it. I remember - and it must be 30 years ago
now
>>  - when the Lab I worked at got a few unix machines. I was given an Ultrix
box
>>  and told to get on with doing something with it. So I started to use it for
>>  network monitoring using SNMP.
>>
>>  Previously, most of us had been using editors that made various uses of
ASCII
>>  terminals - Ann Arbor Ambassadors mostly that could give you 43 lines on
the
>>  screen and pretend to be full-screen by using cursor addressing.
>>
>>  So everyone assumed we'd continue doing much the same, and the debate
turned
>>  onto which editor everyone would be trained to use under unix. Would it be
vi,
>>  emacs, jove, something else. I got bored waiting for this debate to
conclude,
>>  then found the Ultrix box had dxnotepad. So I spent 5 minutes learning how
to
>>  use a mouse-based editor, and got on with writing large amounts of C. Six
>>  months later I found that the debate about which editor to use had made no
>>  progress, so I carried on using dxnotepad, which although not a patch on
>>  something like BBedit, was still better than any ASCII-terminal-based junk,
>>  all of which is obsolete. Why are they obsolete? Because they are bad
tools.
>>  They require you to remember stuff just to use them. Even vi has a manual
that
>>  is 127 pages long. A *manual*? For a fucking *editor*? What are these guys
>>  smoking?
>>
> I don't remember ever reading vi's manual.
> I just asked the bloke next to me. I think someone printed up a card
> with the basic cursors on it

Yes, DEC made some. I still have mine - vi Beginner's Reference. Order No:
AV-MF 10A-TE if anyone needs to order one.

> Someone else showed me basic regex search and replace and that's as far
> as I needed to go to write probably a million pages of code

Well that's the point really.

--
Tim

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