"John Edser"  wrote in message
news:chtpe7$1u9g$1{at}darwin.ediacara.org...
>
>
>
>
> > > > > TH:-
> > > > > IMO what came first the chicken or the egg - is the
> > > > > wrong question.
>
> > > > PF:-
> > > > Nevertheless, it can't be too wrong since "the
egg" is the right
> > > > answer. :-)
>
> > > JE:-
> > > No, they evolved simultaneously. At no
> > > time did one precede the other. This
> > > is the hard bit to understand.
>
> > PF:-
> > John,
> > Autonomous cells (proto-eggs) preceded cooperative cell-clusters that
> > preceded still more complex chickens.
> > Catch my cognition if you can and care. :-)
>
> JE:-
> Autonomous cells (proto-eggs) were
> "chickens", i.e. were _independent_
> units of selection. Eggs remain
> _dependent__ units of selection.
> Chickens and eggs are selected
> as the one nested fitness set  where
> the fitness of the egg is selected
> at the fertile chicken, fitness
> level of selection.

(4 minutes in boiling water for a 60 gram egg will do me fine. %-\ )

Imagine a hen on a clutch of 2 fertile eggs: - the hen camouflages the eggs
and steals a short stroll to stretch her legs. While she is away a 'Common
Foul-Mouthed Egg Nabber' (well know species in Seldomseedonia) sees its
chance and uses its snout to push aside the camouflage but takes fright at
the sight of one of the eggs because, due to a mutation, its shell displays
a pattern that looks like death itself to the 'CFMEN' (but not to the hen).

This way the unborn mutated but still immature egg may not only successfully
deal (however passively) with a threat to its candidature for ancestorhood,
but it also need not thank its parents for being in possession of a unique
individual trait (presumed to be emminently heritable just for the
gedanken-experimental heck of it) that in this case clearly also causes the
patterned egg to unselfishly lend itself (if only tends as far as this
metaphor goes) to promote group selection in respect of the entire unborn
sibling-pair of poultry.

No matter how zoologically groundless my metaphorical principle/possibility
illustrating "fear-in-predator-producing-mutated-egg-shell-pattern"
scenario/thought experiment might be [mainly since no such shell-patterning
has ever emerged AFAIK, or, even if it has, has not been lucky enough to
prevail as part of any documented species of genophenotype], it also shows
(by contrast with what you contend) that whatever is the mind-boggling
matter with your logic it is at a loss as a generally relevant description
of what reality is clearly capable of evolving.

Regards,

P
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