GoddessBaybee wrote:
> In article
, Mark
> Sobolewski says...

Hello GoddessBaybee:

> I'm not "hot and bothered" if a man goes to a prostitute Mark.
> My original point in this thread was that I'm turned off by guys who
go to
> prostitutes.  Honestly, I don't think I could be romantically
involved with a
> guy who went to a prostitute.  Intellectually, I believe it says
there is
> something fundamentally wrong with his view of sex.  On a gut level I
just think
> it's icky.
>
> But honestly, beyond that, I have a live and let live mentality
toward johns.
> I wouldn't want to send a lynch mob after 'em or anything.

Fair enough.

But I'm not going to be so generous.  No, I'm not going
to say I think mobs should chase down meal ho's in the streets.
That clearly isn't necessary.  Most of them are punished
by their own bad karma.  They have to live with themselves.
It's not just icky, it's just plain "wrong" even by their
own standards.  I'll give you the benefit of a doubt and
say maybe you're naive.  Ok?  Read on:

I have a sister who complained at the dinner table
how much she distrusted men.   "Sex sex sex!  That's all
they think about!"  My father (God rest his soul) responded:
"It looks like nothing has changed in the past million years or so"
and proceeded to scarf down his pork chop.

Later, she dated a policeman who wined and dined her.
She told me that he was a fantastic lover (this is no
secret, so I'm not betraying her trust or anything.)
When I asked her what she thought of him, she
responded "I think he's using me for sex!"

I've told this story to women and they've laughed so
hard that one of them peed her pants.  "That's
a woman!"

My point is that this guy didn't "use" her.  He took her
out for fancy dinners, he treated her with basic respect,
he had sex with her, and he left.  If she wanted
more out of the relationship, perhaps she should
have focused upon HIM as a person and not HIM
as an ATM machine to pay for free meals?

Get it?

Without knowing it, these women wind up tricked (pardon
the pun) down the road into psuedo prostitution.

Their reasoning for doing so sounds very similar to prostitutes
trying to talk their way out of a conviction: "Why, he
was just asking for directions officer!"  (I have a former boss
who really did ask one of them for directions and he
got nailed with a citation.  His lawyer got it dismissed :-)

Here's some of the reasons I heard (and my counter-arguments):

1) I'm making sure he's not a cheapskate!
(counter: So you're making sure you'll get something out of him
for sexual favors in the future?  This makes it less a form
of prostitution, how?)

2) I don't want a guy whose going to be a mooch!
(counter: So it's ok for you to act like one?)

3) I'm old-fashioned!
(counter: How?  You think women shouldn't have the right to vote too?
Or do you want to be like the Vanderbilts who worked children to death
in the coal mines for 5 cents an hour?  "Old Fashioned" as in greedy?)

4) I'm testing him to make sure he's serious (this comes from you)
(counter: There's plenty of ways a truly traditional woman can
test a man without mooching meals from him (which doesn't
work anyway as my sister found out).  It's called COURTSHIP
and means spending time (a lot of it) before any concept of
sex is even thought about.  No money need be spent.

I'm sorry some of this is long but as the target for this form
of sexual extortion, I learned to be careful.  I never belonged
to a frat so I couldn't get cheap sex in that manner.

> >> >One benefit of the prostitution/john relationship is that
> >> >it's honest.  Some of the best conversations I've had
> >> >have been with prostitutes.  It was incredible to talk
> >> >to someone after having sex with them without EVER
> >> >having had to feel a need to put on an act.
> >>
> >> These conversations may be honest on *your* part, but the
prostitute is being
> >> paid to put on an act.
> >
> >HAHAHAHA!
> >You seem to be able to figure out how a prostitute might
> >be motivated to lie but you believe that everything
> >a man is saying who risks money in the hopes of having
> >sex with you someday MUST be the absolute God's truth. :-)
>
> huh?
> I know people (men and women) lie Mark.  Like duh.
> When analyzing someone's character, I spend a great deal of time
considering all
> the info, and look at their actions and words.  I never said anything
absurd
> like "all guys who buy a woman dinner on a date are great guys and
have
> upstanding values", that sure aint true.  However, IME the guys who
wanted to
> date me sure seemed a lot more on the up and up than the guys who'd
simply want
> to hook up with me after some party or something.
>
> Maybe this is a generation gap thang.
> Maybe back in your day dating was a lot more common.
> With young people today, a lot of guys seem to only bother with the
formal
> dating thang if they actually like the woman.
> Random hook-ups are more common... they occasionally lead to dating,
but not
> usually.  Judging from the people I know, these hook-ups are usually
just a one
> nite thang, or they lead to a non-dating, non-committed "boodie call"
type of
> relationship.  If a girl is looking for a more serious relationship,
expecting
> the guy to ask her out on a formal date is a good idea, IME.

Agreed.  I've heard about this as well.  I heard something like 15% of
20somethings were herpes simplex positive?  Eeek!

So is there a law that says you can't go dutch?  Note that this
hook-up culture exists because there are so many women
in colleges nowadays who will be able to earn big bucks when
they get out.  Kind of strange for them to ask for a return
to "old fashioned" values when it suits them.

Please answer a question for me: If a man told you he had
done a lot of hookups, would that be less icky?

> >Once again, it's just sex.  Maybe it can be unappealing, but
> >something to be "endured" similar to a root canal?
>
> Actually, I imagine working as a prostitute would be worse than a
root canal,
> not so much in terms of physical pain, put in terms of unpleasantness
and ick
> out factor.  This is just a guess tho, cuz I've never worked as a
prostitute.

And random shacking up is less icky to you?  (OK, I asked it once.
Wait for you to respond...)

But what about men who are basically treated like Johns
but without the respect?  What about us when women
use sexual extortion?

Please hear me out here:

I wasn't just being cheap as you know.  I was willing to spend money
in the long run.  I just didn't want to be treated like a chump.
I offered to go out with them for picnics.  Or have them over
for tea (and vice versa) in a safe environment (I lived in
a home with a prominent television figure and had a private
but publicly viewable patio)  I was willing to meet her folks.
etc.  I wanted to take time to get to know them.

No F'ing way I heard.  Put up (the cash) or get out.  I got out.

> ...but then again, I've never had sex with a stranger or with someone
I found
> physically and/or emotionally repulsive.  I imagine prostitutes have
to endure
> it quite often, but then again they are financially compensated.
Maybe it's
> worth it to them, but I have no interest in that lifestyle.

I'm happy (truly) things worked out for you.

Unfortunately, a lot of women now are disappointed as men
use the "three date rule" (have you heard of that one) and
don't treat women much better.

> I brought up the cleaning the toilet example because you compared
prostitution
> to hiring a servant.  People with money often hire servants to do
unpleasant,
> boring or somewhat gross tasks which they'd rather not do themselves.
 I do not
> put sex into that category.   I think putting sex in that category is
> fundamentally wrong.  I view sex as a physical and emotional
connection between
> two people.  Not a hired out chore.

For some people, cooking is a pleasure.  Martha Stewart makes millions
off of it.  Yet, people go out to restaurants and pay others to cook
for them.

But that's besides the point.  I'm arguing that refusing sexual
services
unless the man pays for a dinner is in a catagory of extortion
rather than prostitution which is an up-front service.  You have
yet to disprove or even address this assertion.

regards,
Mark Sobolewski



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