mark_sobolewski{at}yahoo.com wrote:
> Hyerdahl wrote:
> > bluesmama wrote:
>
>
> > > > You said yourself that you preferred to date men who had
> > > > "crushes" on you based upon their willingness
to pay for your
> > > > company.  You then turn around and then test to see how
> > > > much shit they would take?  Do I have it right?
> > >
> > > I said what? Feel free to point me to those particular posts.
Your
> > > inferences are your own responsibility.
>
> Golly, it's been such a long time that I may have confused
> you for Goddessbaybee?  I'm 90% sure that it was you that said
> something about you wanting to make sure the man had a crush
> on you or wasn't just a "hookup".
>
> > It seems to me that greg is misinterpreting what you have to say,
> which is that first dates are to assess whether or not the person you
are with is someone worth seeing again, in the possibility of a LTR.
>
> If that's what he's paying for, then he should get something
> for his money.  If she's not selling sex, there may be something
> else he can get...

Mark, it's not about "getting" anything, other than sharing a nice
dinner or drink and getting to know another person.  And I have no
objection to going dutch, just so the asker makes himself or herself
perfectly clear about that.

 A man who would just capitulate to everything a woman says is
certainly a liar.
>
> Versus someone who capitaluates to some or many things?

Capitulating instead of having actual agreement, seems to me a form of
lying.  It reminds my of that film called "Runnaway Bride" with Julia
Roberts.  She kept ditching men at the alter, when she discovered that
she was capitulating, by becomming what those men wanted, instead of
finding out who she, herself was and how she "liked her eggs" cooked.
Capitulating is deceptive.

 If women want men to challenge them to keep them from running around
with scissors, then women "capitulate" any moral authority or notion of
equality.

I don't know any women who have asked men to "keep them from running
around with scissors".  Perhaps arrogant sexist male supremacists
simply believe things about women that are untrue, in the hope they can
find a woman who will believe them.  :-)  In the end, I think men have
to go to Russia for that level of belief.  :-)  And, in the meantime,
women still need not marry sexists.

 The sooner he takes charge of the relationship, the better.

And, you've accomplished that, or think you have, by buying a Russian
bride, but how does that really help men who either can't afford to buy
a bride, or men who realize that is only a stop-gap measure when it
comes to actually securing a relationship?

>
> Let's go back to the coffee situation: He should have
> taken charge and since it's a "date", gotten her to hold
> his arm and have him seat her in full presence of everyone.

Geeze.....it's been a while since I've been on a date :-) but I don't
see the first date scenerio quite that way.  Back in my dating days,the
stone age, the man would usually pick up the woman, and drive her to
have an ice cream soda, or dinner.  ;-)  It's been a while.  :-)  The
man would pay.  There was no dispute.  It was a different time.
Today, I watched my sons date; they usually met either the girl or a
group of people at a club or on the wharf, etc. and the one who paid
was either the one who had money at the time, or the one who suggested
a meal.  It seems much more casual today.


> (This makes it tough for her to be seen with lots of
> other guys in the same place.  It makes her look
> like a player.)
>
Like I said, I'm no present-day dating expert, but today it seems more
casual, and a lot of times a group of friends just get together, with
romance as an aside.

> He should have then proceeded to dominate the conversation
> and ask her the "hot seat" questions: What does she
> want out of the relationship, what are her intentions?

Mark, you're starting to sound like my father.  :-)  I really admire
the young people today, in that they are placing romance in it's proper
position, as being less important than friendship first.

> He's already shown his intentions so it's totally fair
> for him to grill her about hers.  If she hasn't
> yet decided she wants him for a "LTR", why not?
> Spit it out!  (pardon any pun!)

So, you think most people automatically KNOW ....on the first date...
whether or not that person fills the bill for a LTR?  Hmmm  I guess I'm
just a slow learner.  :-)  Before I made a commitment it took me ...18
mos. with the person, and lots and lots of dating.  Of course,
sometimes I paid; sometimes I didn't.

> > Who would want to continue dating someone so insecure as to have to
> lie> in hopes of a second date?
>
> That's the pot calling the kettle black since many women
> are so insecure as they cannot handle the risk of rejection
> or blowing money on a date that won't work out.

Mark, traditions die hard, but they do die eventually when the social
situations change.  Today, more women are working outside the home than
at any other time in history.  That changes things.  However, let's not
forget that these women are working within a framework where men also
have expectaion, and that many men are, in fact, turned off when women
come on too strong, especially in terms of a first date.  I don't think
it has much to do with money tho.

>
> Looking back in context, a cup of coffee is actually a very
> very very cheap price to pay for the man being in control
> and able to pick the person they want to ask out.

Sure, there's some limited control in selection I suppose, and if women
want to do the same, it would work that way for them as well.  However,
I think some women, would place themselves in the situation of being
asked rather than doing the asking. Men are tuned into that.  :-)

As to leadership, I'd much rather have a leader who simply told the
truth.  I don't see that sex/gender matters> there; you either tell the
truth or you don't.
>
> Player asker-pays games to snarf free meals is incredibly
> manipulative.

Mark, I appreciate your skills in debate, so I'm not being a smart ass
here, when I say that most women don't date for a free meal.  If they
really just wanted a free meal, they could hang out at convention
centers or go to bridal receptions.  :-)


>
> regards,
> Mark Sobolewski



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