From: "Robert G Lewis" 


"Adam Flinton"  wrote in message
news:42c1dff4$1{at}w3.nls.net...
> Robert G Lewis wrote:
>> "Adam"  wrote in message
>> news:42c11376$1{at}w3.nls.net...
>>
>>>Tony Ingenoso wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Rest comfortable in the fact that the euros will be getting
theirs first
>>>>simply because they're more convenient and closer.  They don't
>>>>understand
>>>>that their decadence and levels of discrimination exceeds
ours and that
>>>>is a
>>>>factor in target selection.
>>>>
>>>>The Dutch got a very tiny taste not long ago and completely
whigged out
>>>>over
>>>>something we would have taken in stride.
>>>>
>>>>Its not like the US borders are sealed and impenetrable -
any dolt can
>>>>wash
>>>>ashore anywhere virtually unmolested, or just hike across a border.
>>>>Yet,
>>>>we've had virtually no domestic incidents of note since 9/11.  On
>>>>hesitates
>>>>to credit this with the efficiency of the CIA/FBI/DHS/etc
since they're
>>>>still fighting turf wars and largely incompetent anyway.
>>>>
>>>>When the heavy lifting is required, you know who they'll
come looking to
>>>>;->
>>>>
>>>Chuckle. Yeah right when you're over stretched. Tell me Tony, which
>>>country is currently leading mil efforts in Afghanistan under the aegis
>>>of NATO?
>>>
>>>& before that?
>>>
>>>& before that?
>>>
>>>Gee when you want people who can actually get along with people
& cool
>>>rather than inflame a situation then the US goes begging round Europe.
>>>
>>>It's not like the US can do peacekeeping/peacemaking is it?
>>>
>>>
>>>Adam
>>>
>>
>>
>> How much emphasis is placed on attack / battle operations in the British
>> Army and how much time is spent on peacekeeping / local development ?
>>
>
> Depends on the formation. SBS/SAS etc don't spend that much time on peace
> keeping coz they're meant to know how to get on with people already (e.g.
> in Malaya).
>
> In general both parts are part of the modern soldier. You hope for no
> fighting period. Lots of smiling & shaking hands etc. It's the old
"art of
> war" thingy i.e. the war won without fighting is the best victory.
>
> In general UK troops (partly coz of our national character) like to get in
> close whether that's to slap someone on the back & have coffee or use a
> knife. Your "kill at a distance" is nice when facing organized enemy
> formations but most wars since 45 the Uk has been involved with have not
> been of that sort (e.g. Falklands, Suez vs all the "end of empire"
> engagements.)
>
>
>> We are very very good at the former but I don't think troops trained to
>> kill it if it moves are a good fit in a non battlefield situation.
>
> It's deeper than that. It's the acceptance of people as people & they
> might be as good as you etc. I think they key diff is that UK troops fight
> best when they think they're the underdog (e.g. Dunkirk is a victory,
> Glorious Glosters ( http://members.tripod.com/~Glosters/Imjin.html ),
> Charge of the Light Brigade etc. etc) whereas US troops need to think they
> "number 1" for morale to keep up.
>
> This bleeds into actions on the ground. We're happy to accept right from
> the get go that Iraqi with guns might be as good as us if not better. It
> makes for more of a challenge that way.
>
>> We do have some trained for the latter but I wonder how much training
>> across the board has been done.
>>
>
> I'm coming round to the views of those older & wiser than I that it's
> cultural & the US mil culture seems unlikely to change (US marines
> shouting strange things sounding like "booyah" & stuff like that).
>
> Johnie Watts came back from a recon in Vietnam to tell the PM that in no
> way should the UK get involved. The reasons then apply now. Nothing has
> changed. The blame was cast on pols "meddling" in Mil matters but that
> wasn't the basic reason. The basic reason is that the US mil won't even
> listen to it's friends so what hope does it have in terms of learning from
> it's enemies.
>
> An example:
>
> We have lost a number of soldiers in unpleasant circumstances. E.g. the
> MP'es surrounded by a mob. Now the UK Land forces could have gone in "in
> full force" & could have found those responsible via picking
up all males
> between 15 & 80 (& to view all locals as possible enemies) but
the harder
> (but more productive) thing to do was to go round to the local leaders &
> sit down for a cup of coffe & try & sort things out even though you know
> that just outside may be some of the people who killed your mates.
>
> THere are so many other examples which I could use as a "compare &
> contrast" that I am starting to accept that the difference is
cultural &
> not down to training.
>
> Adam
>

Interesting. I wonder if the greater exposure to other cultures by the UK
is a reason. I know we do a good bit in the way of joint exercises but that
by itself would not expose a solder to other cultures.

Not Invented Here is a definite problem though .

Bob Lewis

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