John Edser wrote:

>>>JE:-
>>>Here is a copy of my reply to Dr O'Hara's entirely
"confused reply":
>>>--------------------- copy ------------------------------------
>>>
>>>>>JE:-
>>>>>...
>>>>>I have described an experiment that can eliminate all
>>>>>natural selection within an _expanding_ population
>>>>>only allowing genetic drift as causative to allele
>>>>>freq. changes. All you have to do is artificially
>>>>>force all members of one population to raise the
>>>>>exactly the same number of fertile forms to adulthood
>>>>>where this number is larger than just a parental
>>>>>replacement value.  The prediction is: all natural
>>>>>selection must be halted within this experiment while
>>>>>Darwinian fitness equality can remain enforced. Thus only
>>>>>genetic drift (which cannot be eliminated) is now left
>>>>>to cause "evolution".
> 
> 
>>>>BOH:-
>>>>No, you've deleted drift as well.  The only way drift can be
>>>>re-introduced is for there to be genetic variation within a family
>>>>(through segregation), but in this case you can no longer guanrantee
>>>>"Darwinian fitness equality".  In other words,
this doesn't allow you to
>>>>have your cake and eat it.
>>>>If you want to eliminate drift, then you need an infinite [effective]
>>>>population size.
> 
> 
>>>JE:-
>>>Dr O'Hara's reply seems to be completely
>>>confused. At the start Dr O'Hara
>>>comments: "you've deleted drift as well"
>>>when such an event is just experimentally
>>>impossible.  This is because (via BOH's own
>>>conclusion) "if you want to eliminate drift,
>>>then you need an infinite [effective]
>>>population size" which is an impossibility.
> 
> 
>>BOH:-
>>That was not a conclusion: it does not follow from the preceding
>>paragraph.  It was a statement, or a recommendation.
> 
> 
> JE:-
> Dr O'Hara's protest that: "It was a statement, or a recommendation"
> remains absurd via his own logic: "if you want to eliminate drift,
> then you need an infinite [effective] population size" which is an
> _impossibility_. Dr OHara's claim that I have deleted genetic
> drift (which he now repeats!) requires me to have an infinite
> population at my disposal (or just an infinite level of studpidity).
> 
> 
>>>JE:-
>>>I never suggested an intention
>>>to delete genetic drift simply because
>>>I could not do so even if I wanted
>>>to.
> 
> 
>>BOH:-
>>But, alas, your experiment _does_ delete drift, as I have explained.
> 
> 
> JE:-
> Dr O'Hara's arrogance knows no bounds. He still
> insists that I have an infinite population
> at my disposal! Since I do not, then I cannot delete
> genetic drift (via his own logic).
> 
No, you have no variation.  You can't have drift without variation.  My 
point was that if you want to have selection but not drift, then you 
need an infinite population size.  Which, as we both agree, is impossible.

I would suggest you try and demonstrate how your experiment maintains 
drift, as thus far you have ignored that part of my argument, and it's 
the main point I was trying to make: that your experiment deletes any 
between family variation in survival, and hence deletes both drift and 
selection (unless there is within family variation, in which case you 
have both selection and drift, so that you end up not controlling either).


>>
>>>________________________________________
>>>Please provide just one reference
>>>to a point of refutation that exists
>>>within the above for the hypothesis:
>>>"drift can cause evolution without
>>>selection".
> 
> 
>>BOH:-
>>All of them are references.  Try reading them - that's why I posated
>>them.  Nature, at least, should be available from a decent library.
> 
> 
> JE:-
> Dr O'Hara, is a typical Post Modern barbarian.
> He is a mathematician but not a biologist. 

No, I am a biologist.  I have a bachelor's degree in genetics and 
statistics, a Ph.D. in plant epidemiology and a docentship in 
quantitative ecology.



Bob

-- 
Bob O'Hara
Department of Mathematics and Statistics
P.O. Box 68 (Gustaf Hällströmin katu 2b)
FIN-00014 University of Helsinki
Finland

Telephone: +358-9-191 51479
Mobile: +358 50 599 0540
Fax:  +358-9-191 51400
WWW:  http://www.RNI.Helsinki.FI/~boh/
Journal of Negative Results - EEB: www.jnr-eeb.org
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