From: rbs{at}snippets.org
To: c_echo{at}yahoogroups.com

On Sat, 2 Aug 2003 CHARLES ANGELICH wrote:

> RBS> You conveniently forget that I wrote about 35% of the
> RBS> collection.
>
> I don't accept that you wrote 35% but even if I did YOU are ignoring
> that the other 65% isn't your code nor is the other 15meg of code only
> Bob gets to use because Bob is on his last "hurrah"s as a programmer.

Charles, I don't really care what you believe. Some of the old-timers here
were around when I originally wrote it and posted it here. However, you're
not going to believe them any more than me.

At the SNIPPETS home page is a list of all the authors who've contributed
code to the collection. Even on a 1024x768 screen, it takes two pages to
display. In addition, these same authors are credited in the source files
they provided. Even in cases where the code had flaws or wasn't portable
and I had to make major changes to allow it work properly with multiple
tool sets on multiple platforms, I kept the original author's credit and
only added my contribution to cleaning it up.

"Last hurrah"? That's possible. At my age you have have to consider that
anything you accomplish may be your last hurrah.

> RBS> What I've published is still only the tip of the iceberg -
> RBS> at last reckoning, I have some 15 additional Mbytes
> RBS> archived awaiting publication. Again, much of it my own.
>
> I'm not surprised that you keep it to yourself and use it for your work.
> I remember you mentioned that to Roy. That's what you are Bob.

The additional SNIPPETS code consists of code submissions, mostly
unsolicited, that I continue to receive. There's always been a backlog.
Few people have any real idea how much work it is to maintain a collection
like this.  The work comes not in republishing it, but in testing and
"portablizing"  it. By the mid-90's, I was testing each snippet on 4 DOS
compilers, 3 Win32 compilers, plus gcc. Occasionally, especially in the
case of benchmarks, I ran them on a number of platforms where I have
accounts or access.

The simple truth is that I've never used any of this code simply because I
haven't gotten around to fully testing it. I know its there, and if a need
arises, I dig it out, test it, post it to SNIPPETS, and *then* use it. If
I were to sell it to a client, they'd own a copyright on it. By publishing
it to SNIPPETS first, I guarantee it will remain free code.

In 1997, while working on a contract to write V.80 modem firmware for
Compaq, I needed some good general-purpose queuing functions that would
run efficiently on a Motorola 68332. I checked SNIPPETS, but none quite
fit the bill. I dug back through the backlog and came across one I'd begin
writing several years earlier, but never finished up. Realizing that this
would run at top speed on a 68332, I finished it up that evening and
incorporated it into the Compaq firmware the next day. That code, with a
bit more tweaking, is available from the SNIPPETS site as QQ.H/C. Compaq
never paid a dime for it, only for my integration of it into their code.

Around 1998, I dug out several posted and unposted configuration/.ini file
processing packages for use on a job. I selected one as most suitable and
went about updating it with needed new features. Jon Guthrie, another
C_Echo old timer who worked with me at the time, also helped. We both
worked on it "off the clock" so copyright wouldn't become an issue. When
it was done, I republished it in SNIPPETS, and then used it at work,
leaving the original author's attribution, its SNIPPETS snippets lineage,
and Jon's and my contributions, all in the file header.

In 2001, the same thing happened when I working a contract for Motorola/
Metrowerks. Years earlier I had written the getopts() package for SNIPPETS
which includes the functionality of *nix xargs() plus a full command line
option parsing interface. The original was part of my MFL commercial
library, which I later donated to SNIPPETS. For Metrowerks, I had to write
some utilities, portable between Win32 and Solaris which used and expanded
on the getopts() functionality. Again, I went off the clock and wrote the
update on my own time in the evening, then posted it to SNIPPETS, and then
used it on the job, retaining its public domain notice.

The reason the SNIPPETS backlog has grown so huge is that, between simple
age and some severe medical problems (no, I'm not asking for, nor expect,
sympathy), I've had very little spare time to spend on it in the past
decade. I'm working now to totally revamp the site, but it's still a slow
process. Hampering the effort is the recent death of Auke Reitsma, my most
valuable collaborator, proofreader, and a significant source of code in
his own right.

Also, I had been receiving free colocation of the SNIPPETS server, but
that ISP went out of business after the great Houston floods a couple of
years back. Failing to locate another free host, I signed on with a
commercial ISP, causing my monthly SNIPPETS expenses to shoot up from 0 to
in excess of $200/month, overnight. Then, September 11 happened and jobs
became scarce and paying the cost of colocation out of my own pocket
became nearly impossible. At the last moment, a sponsor appeared willing
to cover my hosting expenses in order to gain exclusive sponsorship rights
for the LDSG (my other significant web site on the SNIPPETS server). With
the LDSG paying the bills, all work on SNIPPETS, no matter how overdue,
has had to take a back seat.

> I'm not a fan, no. Hard for you to imagine?

No, not at all. I found a long time ago that you can't please everybody,
so I simply don't worry to much about it as long as it appears to be a
minority opinion.

> You couldn't GPL it and brag about using it at work. You would've cut
> your own throat because all the code you were paid to write would have
> to be made available to everyone for free if it included GPL'd code.
> Cute of you to try and make it sound the other way round though. ;-)

Let me make this perfectly clear - clear enough for even you to
comprehend. I have never, repeat *never*, had a client pay a penny for any
SNIPPETS code, nor have I ever used any SNIPPETS code on a job where the
original author's credit was expunged. Period! The way I assure that the
code remains free is to be scrupulous about posting it SNIPPETS first,
before using it, and only making general modifications during non-billable
hours. Without exception, I've found that clients don't mind getting
something for free. As for the original authors, some have written me that
having their code available publicly has helped them land jobs they might
not otherwise have been offered.

For example, on this current job, I'm using the MATHSTAT package I wrote
some time ago. Over the years, I've updated it from time to time, always
posting the updates to SNIPPETS. This time, it's going into an embedded
environment where a 68332 is allowed only 8-bit memory access (this
relates to the temperature spec's of the memory chips and available board
area). All floating point calculations must therefore be single precision
32-bit operations - no doubles allowed. So I've adapted the MATHSTAT
package to use floats and expunged some of the functionality the client
doesn't need. Since this makes the package dumber and less portable, the
original PD notice remains, but with changes copyrighted by the client.

SNIPPETS grew out of my private collection of PD code. It's now a public
collection. In its decade and a half of existence, I've had almost no one,
except you, complain that it's anything but a useful resource. Twice,
people have asked for their code, already released to the public domain,
to be removed from the collection - once due to a personal disagreement
and the other so they could start their own private web site. I complied
with those requests. I'm not sure what problem you have with it, but your
opinion is truly insignificant to me.

> I will not credit you for other people's efforts. No one thinks a
> librarian is a genius because the library has a few great books. You
> Bob, are a librarian.

Quite true... When people get carried away and refer to "Bob Stout's
SNIPPETS", I always correct them and explain that I'm only the archivist.
The only credit I take, and it really isn't insignificant, is collecting
the code together and verifying both its free status, functionality, and
portability. Still, that's a QA job, and not a creative one.

If people browse the code, they'll find the things I wrote and hopefully,
they'll find them useful. For those items alone, I take creative credit.

> I'm also thinking of the 15 meg of code you keep to for yourself to use
> at your work and I'd wager you get paid for that? The unpublished 15meg
> Bob-only-collection is what you really are Bob.

In that case, I'm untested, unused, and therefore free, but unusable.

> You do "sell the code" Bob. You told Roy you've been using
it all along
> for your work. Reread your own messages.

You've jumped to a wrong conclusion... I've never disguised the PD source
of work I've done, nor taken money for using it. To me, SNIPPETS is simply
a way to avoid re-inventing the wheel and spending your creative time on
things that are unique to the job.

> The only "attack" here is you and your supplicants whining because I
> said "American author" instead of "Canadian" or
"within Amazons agreed
> upon sales territory". You are the worst kind of coward that draws first
> blood then cries "victim" when you get some of it back at you.

From where I stand, my "supplicants", as you call them, were entirely
justified in characterizing your comments as chauvinistic. That you didn't
take the obvious escape route and claim you didn't mean it that way, you
come out swinging and crowing about your self-proclaimed Americanism,
which only served to bolster their impressions.

> RBS> The problem is solved for this client. Rather than generate
> RBS> a large formal document, we agreed to enforce coding style
> RBS> rules using C-Clearly. All I then had to do was create the
> RBS> standard template to configure it, and that part of the job
> RBS> was done with no more effort that what I would have spent
> RBS> writing a formal document using the Straker book.
>
> As soon as your position becomes indefensible you snake out from under
> it to a new and different position. I really doubt this is an acceptable
> solution for this company. It is nothing at all similar to what you
> described in this echo that the company had asked you to produce. I
> think you are making up stories to avoid responding to the fact that my
> suggestions were logical based on your earlier statements that Amazon in
> the UK and Germany would not sell here in the USA to an American
> address. THAT is the prejudice not my suggesting an alternative.

The coding standards issue is only ancillary to my mandate to rewrite their
existing code base and make is maintainable. They didn't ask for it, but
it came up in discussions. They'd taken some steps in that direction a
while back, but that had proven somewhat disastrous in content, plus
everyone ignored them since they didn't have management support. So, yes,
any solution is acceptable. I was trying to solve it in a way that had
been successful before. Failing that (i.e. the book's out of print), I
fell back to an easy-to-implement solution that works for everyone and
doesn't distract me from my principal function.

Also, IIRC, *you* were the one who brought Straker's nationality into it.
I never paid any attention to it, one way or the other. Your unsupported
conviction that there must be a comparable book in print by an American
author is further evidence of your chauvinism.

> I certainly would like you to know that I feel sorry for anyone or any
> company that does need anything from you.

Fortunately, Baker Hughes, Compaq, IBM, Cray, Los Alamos, and others don't
share your opinion. Still, the largest number of companies and/or people
who need anything from me can get it for free at the SNIPPETS web site.

> RBS> Charles, I served some 3 terms as moderator at a time when
> RBS> the C_Echo had it's highest membership.
>
> As an opportunist being here any other time wouldn't have fed your
> collection of other people's code. As soon as the code dried up so did
> Bob.

Charles, you may find this hard to fathom (but then, you probably find
long division equally difficult), but since around 1990, most SNIPPETS
candidate code has arrived via email as direct author submissions rather
than cribbed from the C_Echo.

Also, Bob "dried up" around 1993 due to the contraction of FidoNet in the
face of Internet competition and the fact that I was managing 24 projects
at once for Baker Hughes. Working 10 hour days doesn't leave a lot of time
for a hobby. By that time, I was also within two years of nearly dying
from congestive heart failure.

> RBS> I still maintain cordial relationships with many of the
> RBS> old-timers here. Whatever else I may or may not have done,
> RBS> I have the satisfaction of having helped teach an entire
> RBS> generation of C programmers and providing them with a few
> RBS> megabytes of free source code to crib and learn from.
>
> Grandiose notions about your role in the universe. Manic attack? You
> haven't been here Bob. You didn't teach anyone anything other than to
> mistrust people in a position of authority.

Charles, I was active here for the C_Echo's most significant decade. I was
here when the upstart C++ echo split off from it. I have feedback from
folks helped by the C_Echo, thanking the folks here for helping them
become not only competent, but good, C programmers. I didn't do it by
myself, but as moderator I helped foster the environment where that growth
could take place.

FidoNet in 1985 wasn't like it was later. The Echos were often petty
fiefdoms with moderators ranging from dictatorial to invisible. The
EchoMail structure was unstable, with echos constantly sprouting and dying
in rapid succession. Flame wars raged everywhere.  After the backbone
issued the edict that all echos had to be moderated, it remained pretty
much a zoo. Building on some pre-existing rule sets and mostly common
sense, I put in place a set of formal rules. The formal rules I put in
place for the C_Echo, and which were adapted by many other echos, marked a
turning point. Moderators had both specific authority and accountability.
After an amazingly small number of excommunications, life in the echos
settled down and they became really productive and pleasant places to hang
out.

> Try viewing the URL at the bottom of my messages Bob.

A nice web site - congratulations! Not too many people realize that DOS is
still viable and useful for many things. As an embedded systems
programmer, I find uses for it all the time. It's good to know that folks
are helping keep it alive.

> RBS>>> Actually, I was reporting what the company purchasing
> RBS>>> lady told me. It turns out that the reason she couldn't
> RBS>>> buy it from Amazon UK or Amazon Germany is that they
> RBS>>> were out of stock as well. :-(
>
> >> I based my replies to you on what you had posted here. If
> >> you mislead all of us who is to blame for that?
>
> RBS> Reading some of the other posts in this thread, you seem to
> RBS> be the only only who didn't understand and felt in any way
> RBS> "misled".
>
> Read your own words Bob. After all this fuss about you needing an
> unavailable book you NOW say you were confused by this "purchasing
> lady". Give me a break. You slither out from under every stupid thing
> you say then argue with ME about it.

Not confused, simply misinformed. Other folks have evinced no problem
following this thread. Why is it only you?

> The real wonder is Bob coming here to brag once every other year then
> vanishing into the mist till he has more to brag about. Crawl back into
> oblivion where you belong.

I came here to ask a question. Any "bragging" has come about in defense of
an unwarranted attack. I suppose that anyone insecure in their own
accomplishments will tend to interpret such a defense as bragging.

> >> I worked as a PC consultant for 8 years...
>
> RBS> Ah, a "PC consultant" - that explains a lot...
>
> What a stupid thing to say.

Not really... You provide no insight into your knowledge or capabilities
other than this statement. The term "PC consultant" is most commonly
associated with folks who make their livings running help desks or
building up machines from component parts. Neither is rocket science. If
your capabilities extend beyond that, then I might owe you an apology,
however it's not a job description that elicits just as much respect from
working software engineers as "IT Manager".

> RBS> Neither did I. If the book had been available, I would've
> RBS> used it. That's why I came here asking about it. Since it
> RBS> wasn't, I came up with alternate plan B which took just as
> RBS> little time - problem solved.
>
> Either way Bob uses other people's work and takes credit for the results
> (or gets paid for the results).

The only credit I could take is simply knowing that either existed in the
first place. That's what I get paid for - to know more than the clients
and help them spend their money as efficiently as possible.

I didn't write Straker's book, but if it had been available, a copy with
Straker's name on it would be on everyone's bookshelf - no credit for Bob.
I didn't write C-Clearly, but now everyone there has a copy. I wrote the
configuration template, but it's in a strict format so my name is nowhere
on it - again, no credit for Bob.

If the book had been available, most of the money would have been spent on
acquiring copies - Bob gets about an hour's worth of consulting money.
Without the book, I do the C-Clearly template - Bob gets about an hour's
worth of consulting money.

Using neither, Bob would have gotten at least two days of consulting money
plus all the credit. Explain to me how I came out ahead on this deal?

> RBS> I don't apologize for being an American citizen, but
> RBS> neither do I feel compelled to wrap myself in a flag to
> RBS> feel superior. Anyway, thanks for this last outburst - it
> RBS> fully exposes the chauvinism that was noted in the other
> RBS> message.
>
> Wrap myself in a flag because I won't avoid using the term "American"?
> Bob you are a coward.

I'm an American citizen - a fact based on an accident of birth. In many
respects, it is a good thing, in others, not so good. I acknowledge it and
deal with it, but don't fixate on it. Do you also have a gun rack equipped
pickup truck with a "My country right or wrong" bumper sticker?

> RBS> Sorry Charles, this message only reinforces my conviction
> RBS> that you are both "belligerent/argumentative" and a
"fool".
>
> And you are the same egomaniacal blowhard that you have always been.

Which is in agreement with my previous message that neither of us has
changed much over the years...

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