Steve was returning fire at Paul 
 about El Paso student arrested 
 PN> According to an AP dispatch printed in the San Francisco Examiner
 PN> of May 11, a 19-year-old college student in El Paso TX has been
 PN> arrested on felony charges for posting an Internet message
 PN> about California state senator Tim Leslie (R-Carnelian Bay).
 SG> Just for reference, I can confirm this story and the student's name
 SG> from  this end (El Paso). It was in our paper as well, the same day as 
 SG> mentioned above. Sorry, I gave my copy to a friend so he could use it
 Hmmm..."the dog ate my homework"??? 
 SG> Since I did give away my copy, that's all the details I have right now
 SG> except that supposedly he was not planning to fight extradition to 
 SG> California.
 Would this, IYHO, constitute some degree of overreaction on the part of
 the feds?
 Another perspective:
From: freematt@coil.com (Matthew Gaylor)
Subject: Several comments Re: Felony arrest of College Student for posting 
net message
Date: Sun, 19 May 96 06:10:19 +0000
From: GrayFox65@aol.com
Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 18:58:28 -0400
To: freematt@coil.com
Subject: Re: Felony arrest of College Student for posting net message
Matt,
As much as I value freedom, including freedom of speech, and as much as I
appreciate the excellent service you provide with this list, I hope your
posting of this item does not imply that you believe that Third World
Marxists should have the "right" to openly advocate murder of real Americans,
regardless of their beliefs regarding hunting "lions."
If I were Mr. Leslie, I would feel terribly threatened.  There comes a point
were sanity and self preservation must be given consideration.  That is
fundamental to all life, and it is the principle Jefferson invoked in the
Declaration of Independence.  I think the concept of "fighting words," or
some similar appeal to natural law is appropriate here.  The arrest of this
thug is a small but vital step toward reclaiming the civility that we lost
when we decided (back in the 1960s) to adopt Marxist principles rather than
Western ones as the basis of our government and society.
Re the caveats in the follow-on post:  this is a typical Marxist rhetorical
ruse---when the original message is challenged, issue some plausable
double-speak obfuscation to evade the consequences of the original.
Once again, thanks for providing an excellent service to the community---even
though I fundamentally disagree on this item.
Deo Vindice,
Michael W. Masters
****************************************************************
From: JPell2list@aol.com
Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 22:46:14 -0400
To: zuma@primenet.com
cc: Senator.Leslie@sen.ca.gov, sethf@mit.edu, freematt@coil.com
Subject: Let us pray
Jose Eduardo Saavedra wrote:
>...slimeball, asshole, conservative moron hunted down and skinned and
mounted...pray for the death of those who want to kill mountain lions for
sport.
Come on, Jose, don't hold back, say what's on your mind.
And if you're going to pray these kinds of prayers, you should come to San
Jose California, home of the statue of Quetzlcoatl, the aztec god.  It would
be a perfect match.
(The statue, purchased by the city of San Jose for a half million dollars,
has been likened to a huge lump of canine feces.)
*********************************************************
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Sat, 18 May 1996 07:15:59 -0400
To: freematt@coil.com (Matthew Gaylor)
From: gmcgath@mv.mv.com (Gary McGath)
Subject: Re: Felony arrest of College Student for posting net message
I'm afraid I'm not impressed. This student, in spite of his denials, was
urging people to kill Tim Leslie and anyone else who opposes the
animal-rights nazis. He was not simply advocating an abstract idea, but
saying, "let us declare open season on State SEN TIM LESLIE, his family,
everyone he holds near and dear, the Cattlemen's association and anyone
else who feels that LIONS in California should be killed." Further on, he
says, "Lets HUNT Sen. Tim Leslie for sport?" There is nothing in either
sentence about waiting for a law to be passed before doing this, in spite
of his claim that there is. This is not just advocacy of a theory or
expression of hostility, but incitement to murder -- mass murder, in fact.
Free speech doesn't include direct threats or incitement to take a specific
act of violence; this is the reason why the CDA is not itself free speech.
If someone put signs up in a supermarket urging the murder of a specific
person, it would be no violation of his to arrest him and bring criminal
charges against him. The same applies to posting to the Internet. Based on
the information available so far, I hope that this person is prosecuted and
convicted.
       Gary McGath
       gmcgath@mv.mv.com
       http://www.mv.com/users/gmcgath
****************************************************************
From: GMSchnitz@aol.com
Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 16:27:13 -0400
To: freematt@coil.com
cc: zuma@primenet.com
Subject: Re: Felony arrest of College Student for posting net message
Dear Matt:
Does this student, named "Zuma", really mean that he would NOT hunt down and
kill people who differ with him on political issues (i.e. Senator Leslie)
ONLY because it is illegal?
Here is a quote from his letter: "Do I recommend that we hunt down and kill
Tom Leslie and his family? NO.  Not as long as it is illegal to do so.....-
If California would pass a law allowing the hunting of hunters -then, and
only then, would I go out, buy a gun, and become a hunter."
Apparently so, because in his letter he said he WOULD if it were legal. If
the use of force, either by him or the government, is the only factor of
right or wrong, then this
person has no shred of morality and is not capable of rational thought.
The nasty, name calling nature of his letter seems to bear this out. The real
concern of freemat's alerts ought to be, "What are they teaching this man in
college". This is a greater threat to freedom than this man's arrest.
No, I do not approve of internet censorship, and am staunchly libertarian,
but without reason, morality, and a pro-human set of values, no freedom or
democracy is possible.  This should be as great a concern to the members of
this discussion group as the arrest of this student.
Gary Schnitzer
Http://members.aol.com/gmschnitz
gmschnitz@aol.com
**********************************************************
From: declan@eff.org
  ---------------------------------------------------------------------
  Date: Thu, 16 May 1996 22:51:53 -0700
  From: Mike Godwin 
  Subject: Re: Usenet poster arrested for "threat" against Calif. state
  official
  Clearly protected political speech, of the "Fuck the Draft" variety, and
  not a "true threat," per Watts and Kelner.
  -Mike
  ---------------------------------------------------------------------
And from the San Francisco Examiner of May 11th:
NET THREAT IS TRACED TO STUDENT
SACRAMENTO (AP) - An Internet message declaring an "open season"
on state Sen. Tim Leslie because of the lawmaker's stance on
mountain lions has been traced to a 19-year-old college student in
El Paso, Texas, authorities say.
  Jose Eduardo Saavedra was arrested on a no-bail warrant based on
felony charges filed in Sacramento alleging that he had made
terrorist threats and threatened a public official, said El Paso
County sheriff's Sgt. Don Marshall.
  The computer message posted March 6 read: "Let's hunt Sen. Tim
Leslie for sport. ... I think it would be great" if he "were
hunted down and skinned and mounted for our viewing pleasure."
  Leslie, who pushed for a ballot measure that would have removed
special protections for mountain lions in California, expressed
relief that an arrest had been made but said the incident raised
"big new issues" about the use - and misuse - of the Internet.
  The Carnelian Bay Republican said it was a "very serious matter"
when someone could "threaten or intimidate or extort others in a
public forum like this."
  According to Al Locher of the Sacramento County district
attorney's office, Saavedra was tracked down by investigators
working on information from his Internet provider, Primenet of
Arizona.
The complete fight-censorship thread on this topic is archived at:
          http://fight-censorship.dementia.org/fight-censorship/dl?thread
          =College+student+arrested+after+post+about+Calif+state+senator&
          after=2487&type=short
-Declan
// declan@eff.org // I do not represent the EFF // declan@well.com //
###
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