Bill Buckels wrote:
> "David Schmenk"  wrote in message 
> news:X2Vfk.30470$co7.9464{at}nlpi066.nbdc.sbc.com...
> 
>> I gotta tell you, the Apple II educational market isn't dead, just not 
>> very lucrative :-)
> 
> A small but lively bunch... like linux users:) The market was never 
> particlularly lucrative, but it was always more fun.
> 
>> I actually got back into the Apple II when the local  elementary school 
>> cleaned out a crawl-space and had a bunch of IIs and a III sitting outside 
>> in the rain (I rescued them). In doing so, I met the  computer lab teacher 
>> who still had a gs sitting in the corner.  Although the school district 
>> insisted on PCs, she still keeps the gs along with a slew of MECC titles 
>> and a couple of others for the ELS (English as Second Language) students.
> 
> 
> Tell me more David. Where are you? I am not asking for your co-ordinates. I 
> am more asking what the primary language might be. If we are talking about 
> Spanish, I should note again that the fontset that I use for these little 
> programs supports non-english characters and MeToo! and programs like it 
> would only require minimal effort on my part and probably not much effort on 
> a translator's part for spanish, german, etc. versions to be available. I 
> don't have the interest or the resources to do so without a willing and able 
> translator person.
> 

I'm in Incline Village, at Lake Tahoe.  Like many, we struggle with the 
influx of Spanish speaking residents (was that politically correct 
enough?) and their children who arrive at school without speaking any 
English.  I think having the programs in English is desired.  The large, 
easy to read fonts are also important.  No 7 pt micro-fonts, please. 
The teacher uses the Apple II programs as aids to introduce English.

>> In payment for her letting me take the old
>> hardware, I cut her a cd with AppleWin and DSK files of most the MECC
>> titles (I still have a pile to work through) to use on the PCs.
> 
> When you are done the CD you should offer it as a collection on-line.
> 

Eveything I have on cd I downloaded from the new and asimov.  Offering 
the ISO image that auto-runs AppleWin available would be easy enough, 
though.

>> Next month, my son starts kindergarten, and I promise I will round up
>> more titles to add to the cd - all of yours included.  I'll take them to
>> the lab and see how they go over.  I'm sure they will be a hit.
> 
> If you find any bugs let me know and they will be fixed. My lab is not 
> set-up yet. Like you I am rounding-up a GS and want to get the Apple //e 
> that I scrounged last year into a place of honour, get flash cards, and just 
> generally have the vintage stuff available for testing and also for 
> grand-kiddies and me to play-on. I have the C64 to resurrect too. In the 
> meantime I use an emulator to test-in. Therefore tests are cursory and 
> subjective. For example, AppleWIN has disk acceleration. This is a wonderful 
> feature but creates the illusion that disk IO is more responsive than it 
> would be on floppy media.
> 
>> Keep 'em coming!
> 
> No problem there. Thanks for the feedback.
> 
> The goal as always should be that the user experience defines the success of 
> the software and not the other way around. Compiler developers and other 
> complex folks who focus on "pure" and idealistic
computer-science are often 
> and usually blind-sided when it comes to ergonomics and other human-factors 
> issues.
> 
> When I studied Industrial Design our mantra was
"FORM=FUNCTION". However in 
> computer engineering type courses that churn-out programmers and even in 
> business computing courses, the design component is largely absenst and the 
> focus is on the lowest common denominators of language syntax, and 
> algorithms, and other left-side logical training and is deficient in 
> balancing the calculus with development of the right-side's creative 
> potential.
> 
> Without getting too far into why this is, the end result is usually crappy 
> software that conforms to some comp-sci standard like CUA (common user 
> access).
> 
> So what about basic design concepts like color selection, pattern, 
> repetition, alternation? Yes this is Interior Design. But the last time I 
> looked, most kids aren't using educational software when they are out on the 
> play-structure during recess.
> 
> "Percentile Satisfaction"  and Software:
> 
> If we go back to the 1970's an Engineer by the name of "Sid
Love" published 
> a series of articles in a magazine called "Mastery of
Engineering". One of 
> them ("Design by Timely Interation") was much later
rebranded by Micro$oft 
> as RAD (Rapid Application Development). Another (the name of the article 
> escapes me) that I use whenever I have the opportunity in both hard product 
> design and software is a "Percentile Satisfaction" design evaluation 
> methodology which rates design options by quantifying each
"quality" with a 
> ratio metric based on what programmers call "requirements"
then compares 
> each design and picks the highest rated option as the best.
> 
> Bear with me. This gets simple:)
> 
> You take every requirement of a design and give it a value on a scale of 
> your choosing. This rating can be arbitrary but it must be fairly balanced. 
> First decide what overall percentage of the design each requirement is:
> 
> Clear Simple Graphics=20%
> Ages 4-8(audience)=20%
> Boys and Girls(inclusion)=20%
> Keyboard Navigation=5%
> Mouse Navigation=5%
> Good Documentation=30%
> Total =100%
> 
> It should already be apparent despite the simple example that the computer 
> sciencey stuff rates pretty low in the overall rating. Usually it will since 
> software is mostly about content. And the design doesn't even consider if it 
> is running on Windows Xp or on an Apple II.
> 
> Now that the requirements have been prioritized and ratios have been 
> established up to 3 potential options are devised for each. Each are 
> compared against the overall satisfaction value and given their own value 
> based on ratio.  For example, no mouse navigation is rated as 0 and using a 
> mouse in place of the keyboard for all commands is 5. A compromise is 
> subjective and probably gets a value of 3.
> 
> Now comes the fun part. Since all design is a compromise, the designer, or 
> programmer now has a tool to prioritize which compromises can be made and at 
> what cost to the overall design.
> 
> I realize that I am on a tangent here. But when it comes to programming 
> children's software, and selecting the best presentation venue, since the 
> design accomplishes the overall goal, the Apple II or even an old Nintendo 
> gaming system and a TV does just as well as anything else.
> 
> Now here's where venues like the Apple II are better I think.
> 
> The teacher can leave a box of disks out and the kid can pick one and walk 
> over to an Apple II and put the disk in the drive themselves, then turn-on 
> the computer and they are right-into the program. At least that's the way I 
> remember it. No learning of Windows or other desktops, and no need for 
> dealing with these horking and expensive fearsome monstrosities that we call 
> computers these days.
> 
> IMNSHO It is a fine thing that you and the teacher have done. If I was 5 I 
> would be having fun:)
> 
> As far as this reply goes, I certainly have provided a mine-field of 
> arguments that can be raised for a lively discussion:)
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Bill 
> 
> 

I think there has been a shift away from the basics.  The Apple II is 
really no more complicated than a tape recorder for a kid to use - and 
about as robust.  Stick a disk in the drive and turn it on.  The 
hardware requires simple, big and bold graphics.  Damn near 
indestructible.  Perfect for the educational market.  What other 
computer can withstand the use by grade-school kids for ten years and 
still work like it was new?  It's hard to argue that a Dell running XP 
is a better environment, IMHO.  I know, all the kids are used to 
whiz-bang graphics (of which I'm partly guilty) and 5.1 surround sound. 
  You can't keep their ADD brains in front of a boring old computer for 
long.

Another goal I had for my java vm02 project was to be an advanced high 
school computer curriculum tool.  Schools used to have all the Apple IIs 
stuck in a closet.  Image using them for teaching basic aspects of 
hardware design using a relatively modern language - one that they would 
most likely be learning in high school or college.  So what if one gets 
fried (which is kind of hard to do anyway), just pull another one out of 
the closet.  Add NadaNet to learn about networks and grid computing, all 
using stuff that was going to be thrown away.

But, I'm a few years too late.  Most of the Apple IIs have been tossed. 
  There was still so much learning potential in those machines, from 
kindergarten through high school.

Maybe we can keep the old-skool vision going for a little while longer,

Dave...
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