++> From explorations of "immense absurdities" between
 ++> Day Brown and David Martorana                  __
     
 
 DM>> The question has enormous meaning as the "something" option is
 DM>> tricky once beyond religion........... ...that "something is",
 DM>  IS the more absurd .
 
 DB> I've been fooling with the idea of complete Chaos, and find
 DB> that it supplies the usual idea of no-thing, except that the
 DB> former is capable of generating the universe out of nothing.
 
     I tend to believe that both our conceptual and vocabulary
     limits are somewhat against us. We are probably dealing with
     elements of existence that are (for now) a bit beyond what
     the human mind can shape into meaning.
 
 DB> Both 'nothing' and 'chaos' lack any means of discerning any
 DB> sort of system or separation between 'this' and 'that'.
 
     "nothing" and "chaos" may NOT lack discernment. We might
      entertain the notion that there are other "LOGICS", instead
      of trying to beat to death that little we know. Likely that
      WE (a we bit arrogant) are the element lacking discernment!
      I feel that our being mired in "old thinking" limits what we
      might have the capability to yet know! .......just a private
      wager-ish notion.
 
 DB> It also looks like the question of whether something that is
 DB> not perceived can exist- the noise of falling trees in the
 DB> forest...
 
     It is a nice "clever sounder" between trunks of ignorance.
     I don't think our reality/universe gives a good damn what
     we think (or hear) and enjoys a bit of noise in all its too
     often quietude. Any importance as to the "WHO-OF-HEARING" can
     never be more than a joke between us ......yes! we think so?
 
 DB> Before the big bang, Chaos had all of eternity to randomly iterate
 DB> in, and at some point, things fell into place.  they only had to
 DB> do this once..., and BANG!
 
     It could have been many puffs or three clunks and a puddle!
     Things may not have EVER fallen into place.......and are still
     teasing at what its absolute "NOTHING" mix of orderly motivations
     MIGHT grow up to be .....or not be .....or likely OTHER!  We could
     make an endless list of equally explorable possibles. Could we?
 
 DB> The idea that the universe *must* have been created by plan fails
 DB> to appreciate the enormous amount of time available to simply let
 DB> it all happen.
 
     It might be an even more enormous plan, not fully appreciated
     by time!
 
 DB> This idea does *not* exclude the existence of God,
 DB> but suggests that he is the first witness.
 
  Unable to exclude "ANYTHING", I'm not sure what your "suggestion"
  means here other than to joy a personal notion! BUT! ....it's OK!
 
 DB> If God exists, can Chaos be? Yes, if Chaos was first.  Whether
 DB> God has the ability to eliminate Chaos is moot, in that he has
 DB> not decided to try.
 
     *IF* there is/was a GOD, and *IF* He is the Jewish/Christian
     God and *IF* the documentation is essentially correct, then
     we are told that.... "God does not think like man". There may
     not be any "Chaos" ....from His point of view! It all might be
     a fine ballet or concert (perhaps an opera) !!!
 
 DB> Thus, Chaos can be, as it often is, the cause of bad shit.
 
     I believe this is an undersimplification of an unknowable-
     Please explain....! .....or was it meant to be a parting
     "fart in the wind" ?  Your assumed question/meaning (as I
     tranlate it), is suggestive of our growing up with reality
     in the process of being educated ??? or do I assume wrongly?
 
                            ??
                            iQ ... Dave
 
      Whither we are accidental or incidental carbon, groomed to be
      gods or to bait some unseen fish, we can ONLY be some sure of
      a  pleasure as our moment passes.  For many, not even that is
      possible....... For some few there may even be more.........!
      Knowing has no meaning beyond what we can invent and precious
      little clever of that....!
--- Maximus/2 3.01
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