From: "Gary Britt" 

I think we will have to disagree.  I think my band example was right on
point.  I don't think primary school children are up for lessons on
comparative religions and that wasn't at all what I meant.  I think that
tolerance is a two way street and those that seek tolerance for themselves
should out of good manners if nothing else also be a bit tolerant of those
from whom they seek to enforce strict definitions of acceptable tolerance.

I think that as long as Christmas (Christ's Mass) is a national holiday of
long standing cultural tradition in our country and that tolerance of the
music and other traditions associated with that national holiday isn't too
much too ask or expect, as long as it remains an official national holiday.

Of course the entire problem with our differing opinions would be solved by
doing away with public schools entirely and giving parents the right to
designate what schools, religious or otherwise, get the full tax dollars
(state, federal, and local) used to educate their children.

We would get much less violent and much better educated students as a
result, in addition to everyone being able to be happy at Christmas.

I agree with Robert Lewis that this has been for me a very enjoyable and
enlightening exchange.

Gary


"Ellen K."  wrote in message
news:nfocj1pkjtjqnhnpepmj1v0dnl97n0omol{at}4ax.com...
> Chanukah (or Hanukkah or pick your variation) isn't an English word, so
> I don't see how there can be a "correct" English spelling,
since Hebrew
> is not written with the Roman alphabet and many of the sounds in each
> have no equivalent in the other.  The first sound in Chanukah is similar
> to the "ch" in Scottish "loch", but I guess some
people might prefer to
> start it with an "h" in English to avoid people thinking it
starts with
> the sound of "ch" in "chair".
>
> You are mixing apples and oranges.  A class session about comparative
> religions would not devalue anyone.  Treating all children as if they
> are members of a particular religion devalues those who are not.  This
> is in no way comparable to your band example.
>
> On Fri, 23 Sep 2005 15:49:35 -0400, "Gary Britt"

> wrote in message :
>
> >
> >"Ellen K."  wrote in message
> >news:kej8j15ormri5d28iglm9uunraupj835av{at}4ax.com...
> >> A little kid doesn't think about not doing what the class is supposed
to
> >> be doing, or asking to be excused.  A high school kid maybe, but not a
> >> first-grader.
> >>
> >> This was during class, not at any kind of "performance
event".
> >>
> >> I guess the best word for how I felt would be "devalued".
> >>
> >> I don't think public schools should be in the business of making some
> >> kids feel devalued because they don't belong to the majority religion.
> >>
> >> We had a menorah in our house at Chanukah.
> >>
> >
> >Why did my spell checker spell Hanukah without the "C".  Are there
> >alternative spellings?
> >
> >I'm sorry you felt bad, but it seems to me that a little talk from your
> >parents about being tolerant of others beliefs is a good thing and that
just
> >because others don't believe or act exactly as do you or your parents
that
> >this isn't anything to feel bad about would have easily cured your
> >discomfort.
> >
> >I agree that public schools shouldn't make children feel devalued.  I
don't
> >agree that singing Christmas songs at Christmas season in recognition of
a
> >national holiday and national celebration should reasonably be considered
to
> >have that effect on any child.
> >
> >I think the majority should be tolerant of minority religions, not try to
> >stamp them out or exclude their members from being part of the community
in
> >general or discriminate against them.  I also think that minority
religions
> >and their members should be tolerant of the majority's beliefs, and
should
> >not expect the majority to sanitize their lives and public institutions
of
> >all traditions and cultural heritage that might make an overly insecure
> >adult or child confront the realization that they are of different.  I
think
> >the minority child should be taught to embrace their differentness, while
be
> >tolerant and understanding of the necessary exposure to other beliefs
when
> >living in a society composed mostly of people with different beliefs.  If
> >nothing else its just good manners to exchange tolerance for tolerance.
> >
> >When I was in 7th grade, I was held back from joining the
"concert band"
and
> >forced to repeat the beginner band composed almost entirely of 6th
graders.
> >That meant I was different from all my classmates.  I played different
> >music, had different rehearsals, etc.  One day to demonstrate the miracle
of
> >an oscilloscope, our science teacher instructed all those in class to go
get
> >their instruments and sheet music to play a song while all watched the
> >wave's displayed on the oscilloscope.  Not thinking ahead I happily
joined
> >my classmates in the rush down to the band room to get my saxophone and
> >music.  It wasn't until we got back to class that I realized I was the
only
> >one with the "wrong" sheet music and could not participate in this
> >"exercise".  I had to sit there feeling like I had a
giant neon sign
> >flashing on my forehead announcing to the rest of the class a reminder
that
> >I had been punished and held back and was different from all of them.
> >
> >After, the exercise was over the teacher, apparently noticing the obvious
> >distress on my face, told me she was sorry if this exercise caused me
> >discomfort and it wasn't her intention to humiliate me or make me feel so
> >different.  I told her it wasn't her fault I wasn't in the concert band,
and
> >it never occurred to me that the teacher should have never set up this
> >"exercise" because it might make me feel bad or
different.  It would be
> >ridiculous for me to think that the entire class should be deprived of
this
> >group "experience" just because I was different.  How
much my classmates
> >enjoyed this little break from the normal science stuff we did was all
over
> >their faces.  How selfish and self-centered would it have been of me to
> >expect everyone else should be deprived of this group experience just
> >because I was different.  It was up to me to accept the fact that I was
> >different, and to deal with the good and bad that may come from such
> >differences.   That's how life is, and life exists even for 7th graders.
It
> >would have been much less painful, almost entirely painless really, if I
had
> >been able to just play along with the others.  I would have been thrilled
to
> >have been able to play along with others so that my differences were not
so
> >highlighted.  It wouldn't have changed the fact that I was different, but
I
> >would have felt like a member of the group for purposes of this
"exercise".
> >
> >If properly handled singing Christmas songs should have no negative
impact
> >on those who are atheist, Jewish or Muslim, etc.  They aren't prayers nor
> >are they religious observances.  Its all a matter of tolerance, and
> >tolerance shouldn't be just a one way street.
> >
> >I don't think any child should be forced to sing if they don't want to
sing,
> >nor do I think that child's desire not to have singing be forced upon
> >everyone else.  I would think parents could properly anticipate and
prepare
> >their children for this kind of an event, so that there is no trauma to
the
> >child and no selfish expectation by that child that everyone else should
> >conform their behavior to the beliefs of the minority.  That preparation
> >could be in the form of "its ok to sing the words of these songs and be
part
> >of the group.  Its just a secular celebration and not intended to be a
> >prayer.  It doesn't mean you are renouncing your own beliefs because you
are
> >tolerant of others beliefs and cultures".  Such explanation from the
parent
> >or an explanation for the need to respect others and be polite while not
> >participating, if that is the parents' preference, and presto no more
> >problem feeling devalued.
> >
> >Gary
> >
>

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