Responding to a message by Matt, to Charles on ...
MS>You're talking _credentials_, not whether the teacher 
MS>can effectively teach his subject.
Sounds like the debate some are participating in over the ideas of Illich.
  
MS>Is either a 4-year degree or teacher certification a real predictor of 
MS>whether an industrial-arts teacher will be a good teacher?
I don't know, never having researched the topic.  Is 7 years of college 
a real predictor of whether a lawyer will be a good barrister?  I would 
suspect that not everyone holding that degree is an excellent lawyer, 
but I'll bet there's darn few *without* the degree that know the law 
well enough to do a good job.  I'll bet that few of those not trained to 
be teachers can do as good a job without the degree either.
MS>Is the coursework represented by that degree or 
MS>certification really necessary to being a good HS 
MS>industrial-arts or phys-ed teacher, or for that matter a 
MS>good elementary-school math teacher?
If properly done, yes.  One should learn a variety of teaching styles, 
philosophies and techniques.  One should also broaden his/her education 
so as to make the material taught more meaningful.  A teacher should 
also study psychology and and physiology so as to better understand the 
children he/she is teaching.
MS>Early this century, Wisconsin only required _one_ year of college 
MS>for rural public school teachers and two for urban teachers...are 
MS>you convinced today's Wisconsin teachers are any better 
MS>(with the near-certain requirement of a four-year degree)?
Yes.
MS>One of the reasons private schools can choose better 
MS>teachers is precisely that _flexibility_: the ability to 
MS>hire as a math teacher the retired college prof who lacks 
MS>state certification or the retired military drill sergeant 
MS>who wants to teach history but never finished college.
Your premise, as I understand it, then, is that the less educated a 
teacher is the better it is for the kids?  OK.  Got it.
And how much better would that retired college prof be if he/she got 
some training in presenting the material he/she would be teaching to 
these younger children, or how much better would that drill sergeant be 
if he got some training in the psychology of teaching 12-year-olds 
instead of treating them as recruits at the Great Lakes Naval station?
Most of the bad teachers I've had in my life were at the college level, 
for they were masters of their subject areas, not teachers.
I think you're way off base on this issue.
Chuck Beams
Fidonet - 1:2608/70
cbeams@future.dreamscape.com
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