From: "Robert G Lewis" 

Ellen

It seems to me the ultimate question comes down to Is Christmas ( and its
songs) a religious or a non religious holiday?  You apparently see it as
being more religious, Gary apparently sees its current mainstream practice
as non religious.

Personally I do not want any publicly funded school to mandate ANY religion
on children. I don't  want state mandated and led prayer in those schools.
To me it debases religion and there is a tremendous potential for abuse,
Say a good fundamentalist Baptist prayer for those poor damned idol
worshiping Catholics .

I have enjoyed this thread tremendously. I've gotten a better perspective
on Jews than I had .

Bob Lewis



"Ellen K."  wrote in message
news:nfocj1pkjtjqnhnpepmj1v0dnl97n0omol{at}4ax.com...
> Chanukah (or Hanukkah or pick your variation) isn't an English word, so
> I don't see how there can be a "correct" English spelling,
since Hebrew
> is not written with the Roman alphabet and many of the sounds in each
> have no equivalent in the other.  The first sound in Chanukah is similar
> to the "ch" in Scottish "loch", but I guess some
people might prefer to
> start it with an "h" in English to avoid people thinking it
starts with
> the sound of "ch" in "chair".
>
> You are mixing apples and oranges.  A class session about comparative
> religions would not devalue anyone.  Treating all children as if they
> are members of a particular religion devalues those who are not.  This
> is in no way comparable to your band example.
>
> On Fri, 23 Sep 2005 15:49:35 -0400, "Gary Britt"

> wrote in message :
>
>>
>>"Ellen K."  wrote in message
>>news:kej8j15ormri5d28iglm9uunraupj835av{at}4ax.com...
>>> A little kid doesn't think about not doing what the class is supposed to
>>> be doing, or asking to be excused.  A high school kid maybe, but not a
>>> first-grader.
>>>
>>> This was during class, not at any kind of "performance event".
>>>
>>> I guess the best word for how I felt would be "devalued".
>>>
>>> I don't think public schools should be in the business of making some
>>> kids feel devalued because they don't belong to the majority religion.
>>>
>>> We had a menorah in our house at Chanukah.
>>>
>>
>>Why did my spell checker spell Hanukah without the "C".  Are there
>>alternative spellings?
>>
>>I'm sorry you felt bad, but it seems to me that a little talk from your
>>parents about being tolerant of others beliefs is a good thing and that
>>just
>>because others don't believe or act exactly as do you or your parents that
>>this isn't anything to feel bad about would have easily cured your
>>discomfort.
>>
>>I agree that public schools shouldn't make children feel devalued.  I
>>don't
>>agree that singing Christmas songs at Christmas season in recognition of a
>>national holiday and national celebration should reasonably be considered
>>to
>>have that effect on any child.
>>
>>I think the majority should be tolerant of minority religions, not try to
>>stamp them out or exclude their members from being part of the community
>>in
>>general or discriminate against them.  I also think that minority
>>religions
>>and their members should be tolerant of the majority's beliefs, and should
>>not expect the majority to sanitize their lives and public institutions of
>>all traditions and cultural heritage that might make an overly insecure
>>adult or child confront the realization that they are of different.  I
>>think
>>the minority child should be taught to embrace their differentness, while
>>be
>>tolerant and understanding of the necessary exposure to other beliefs when
>>living in a society composed mostly of people with different beliefs.  If
>>nothing else its just good manners to exchange tolerance for tolerance.
>>
>>When I was in 7th grade, I was held back from joining the
"concert band"
>>and
>>forced to repeat the beginner band composed almost entirely of 6th
>>graders.
>>That meant I was different from all my classmates.  I played different
>>music, had different rehearsals, etc.  One day to demonstrate the miracle
>>of
>>an oscilloscope, our science teacher instructed all those in class to go
>>get
>>their instruments and sheet music to play a song while all watched the
>>wave's displayed on the oscilloscope.  Not thinking ahead I happily joined
>>my classmates in the rush down to the band room to get my saxophone and
>>music.  It wasn't until we got back to class that I realized I was the
>>only
>>one with the "wrong" sheet music and could not participate in this
>>"exercise".  I had to sit there feeling like I had a
giant neon sign
>>flashing on my forehead announcing to the rest of the class a reminder
>>that
>>I had been punished and held back and was different from all of them.
>>
>>After, the exercise was over the teacher, apparently noticing the obvious
>>distress on my face, told me she was sorry if this exercise caused me
>>discomfort and it wasn't her intention to humiliate me or make me feel so
>>different.  I told her it wasn't her fault I wasn't in the concert band,
>>and
>>it never occurred to me that the teacher should have never set up this
>>"exercise" because it might make me feel bad or
different.  It would be
>>ridiculous for me to think that the entire class should be deprived of
>>this
>>group "experience" just because I was different.  How
much my classmates
>>enjoyed this little break from the normal science stuff we did was all
>>over
>>their faces.  How selfish and self-centered would it have been of me to
>>expect everyone else should be deprived of this group experience just
>>because I was different.  It was up to me to accept the fact that I was
>>different, and to deal with the good and bad that may come from such
>>differences.   That's how life is, and life exists even for 7th graders.
>>It
>>would have been much less painful, almost entirely painless really, if I
>>had
>>been able to just play along with the others.  I would have been thrilled
>>to
>>have been able to play along with others so that my differences were not
>>so
>>highlighted.  It wouldn't have changed the fact that I was different, but
>>I
>>would have felt like a member of the group for purposes of this
>>"exercise".
>>
>>If properly handled singing Christmas songs should have no negative impact
>>on those who are atheist, Jewish or Muslim, etc.  They aren't prayers nor
>>are they religious observances.  Its all a matter of tolerance, and
>>tolerance shouldn't be just a one way street.
>>
>>I don't think any child should be forced to sing if they don't want to
>>sing,
>>nor do I think that child's desire not to have singing be forced upon
>>everyone else.  I would think parents could properly anticipate and
>>prepare
>>their children for this kind of an event, so that there is no trauma to
>>the
>>child and no selfish expectation by that child that everyone else should
>>conform their behavior to the beliefs of the minority.  That preparation
>>could be in the form of "its ok to sing the words of these songs and be
>>part
>>of the group.  Its just a secular celebration and not intended to be a
>>prayer.  It doesn't mean you are renouncing your own beliefs because you
>>are
>>tolerant of others beliefs and cultures".  Such explanation from the
>>parent
>>or an explanation for the need to respect others and be polite while not
>>participating, if that is the parents' preference, and presto no more
>>problem feeling devalued.
>>
>>Gary
>>
>

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