Hi John,

On Wed 2037-May-20 20:17, JOHN FITZGERALD (1:123/140) wrote to ALL:

RS>   Jesse Ventura is making the rounds of talk shows, 
RS>   he *WAS* waterboarded, as part of his SERE training, 
RS>   and he says flat out is *IS* torture.

JF>     Do you really think Ventura would 'flat out' allow himself to be
JF> subjected to real torture?  Eyes poked out, fingers chopped off,
JF> teeth pulled, etc.

OF course not.

JF>     The fact that he was willing to subject himself to waterboarding
JF> tells us it really isn't anything you can't get over of within
JF> minutes, Thanks for helping to demonstrate that.

YEp, and thanks for helping to demonstrate a point that I've been trying to
make in this echo as well.  Many
interrogation techniques might or might not be considered
torture depending on your working definition of the term.
But again, let us examine the child who is badgered by the
social worker or counselor because they *suspect* but cannot prove child
sexual abuse.

AS with the victim of waterboarding the child will get over
the trauma of the  interrogation and examinations.  But,
because to the child it is quite uncomfortable, depending on your
definition torture the child will finally tell the
interrogator what it thinks interrogator wants to hear to
make it stop./
Hence my working definition would be any technique which
places enough discomfort on the subject to get them to say
anything at all which they think will make it stop.  WHEther or not there
is permanent damage, eyes gouged out, fingers
snipped off, etc. it can still be defined as a form of
torture.

Iow we here in the united states have wrongfully convicted
individuals if not thanks to confessions obtained by torture then victims
who derive their victimhood status under
torture.


Anybody who's read Grisham's "an innocent man" about the
murders in Oklahoma and the washed up professional
ballplayer who was accused of those crimes has noted the
numerous false confessions obtained from suspects in that
case, under duress.  THe "duress" was only prolonged
badgering on videotape by law enforcement folks, but the
individuals subjected to it weren't the brightest crayons in the boxes in
the first place, and were very intimidated by
the process.  which is why supreme court decisions, and
those of other courts have disallowed so-called confessions
obtained under duress.

What is quite valid is questioning the validity and accuracy of information
obtained through such techniques as waterboarding then.  Anything else is
just bs.

Regards,
           Richard
... Measure with a micrometer.  Mark with chalk.  Cut with an axe.
--- timEd 1.10.y2k+