Grizzlie Antagonist wrote:
> On 15 Mar 2005 13:30:37 -0800, "bluesmama"

> wrote:
>
> >
> >Grizzlie Antagonist wrote:
> >> On 15 Mar 2005 12:57:27 -0800, "bluesmama"

> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> >
> >> >Grizzlie Antagonist wrote:
> >> >> On Tue, 15 Mar 2005 11:00:15 -0500, howldog
> >
> >> >> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> >the point is, these superhero chick shows are about as
realistic
> >and
> >> >> >empowering as The PowerPuff Girls. Its amazing
to me that any
> >woman
> >> >> >could get any "empowering" out of
them. You could say the same
> >thing
> >> >> >about a guy who watches James Bond and gets any
empowerment
outta
> >> >that
> >> >> >as well, I guess.
> >> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> Men are not allowed to receive empowerment from anything.
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >Do you truly believe this, or are you exaggerating?
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> What kind of question is that?
> >
> >It's quite a serious question. Which you didn't exactly answer. Do
you
> >truly believe that men are not allowed to receive empowerment from
> >anything?
> >
> >> Name one thing that men are allowed to receive empowerment from.
> >>
> >Well obviously I'm not a man, so I can't know firsthand what things
men
> >draw empowerment from, I can only make assumptions and God help me
if I
> >make assumptions here because someone is going to trot out the tired
> >old ASS-U-ME thing, but anyway, assume I will.
> >
> >I'm assuming men get feelings of empowerment from similar things
that
> >women get them from; situations where they feel competent, desired,
> >respected, and so on. Being good parents, being good providers,
being
> >good at whatever it is they choose to do.
>
>
>
> This is fucking bullshit, and it's just the sort of fucking bullshit
> that I would expect from a pampered princess living in a matriarchal
> society who takes her privileged status for granted...

Well don't get your panties in a twist, I'm just asking for
clarification. Do you get this upset when a man asks you a question, or
is your ire just reserved for women and feminists or pampered
princesses?

> ...to say nothing of the fact that you COMPLETELY blew over the
> qualifier that I set forth at the end of the post (where I said "I
> don't mean, as individual human beings.  I mean, AS MEN.")

I didn't blow over it at all, I asked you to TELL me something, and
freely admitted that, as a woman, I can only guess at what men draw
empowerment from. So I gave some examples, and if they aren't the
things that make you feel warm and fuzzy inside, or whatever the male
equivalent is, I was hoping you might give me some details about what
does make you feel empowered as a MAN.

And by the way, no one can allow you to be empowered, it's something
you do for yourself. I imagine there are sources out there from which
both men and women can draw empowerment, whether it's considered
politically correct to do so or not.

> We were talking about the fact that women receive empowerment from
the
> exaltation of women and the humiliation of men.  The examples being
> used in this thread were those scenes from movies and TV where
> ass-kicking chicks use martial arts to subdue armies of men with
their
> bare hands and feet.

Some women might draw empowerment from those images; I personally do
not.

> Howldog was making the point that women are allowed to receive
> "empowerment" from scenes in popular mainstream entertainment in
which
> women beat up men.  Can you think of an equivalent male-empowering
> entertainment phenomenon that exalts men over women?

Well first off I see empowerment as a positive thing, and the
woman-kicking-man's-ass doesn't fit my definition of empowerment, but
that's just my opinion. If you are saying that there are no media
examples of men kicking women around, I'd have to disagree - though
lately, it's been more verbal denigration than physical violence, and
frankly, verbal denigration is much worse, as bruises do heal.

> And another example of popular renditions of female "empowerment" are
> any ceremony or news story which honors a female achiever as a WOMAN
> or as a FEMALE achiever - whereas MALE achievers (far more numerous
> and with achievements far more worthwhile) are honored only as
> INDIVIDUALS and not as MEN or as MALE ACHIEVERS.

Female achievement in sport is celebrated because it's been primarily a
male venue.

> When some group of female Americans won some sort of soccer
tournament
> against all-female competition in 1999, that was supposed to be some
> sort of triumph for American women and girls and some sort of
disgrace
> for American men (as though male athletes had never before won glory
> for their country).
>

Don't follow soccer so I can't comment on that particular example
except to wonder how women competing against women has anything to do
with men.

> The ability of a team of American women to prevail over a number of
> teams of foreign women was portrayed, in some mysterious
unexplainable
> and illogical fashion, as proof that females were superior to males.

Sadly some people are still caught up in the "which sex is superior"
fight.

> How come when John Elway comes back from adversity to win two Super
> Bowls; how come when Lance Armstrong overcomes testicular cancer to
> win the Tour de France, they are portrayed as INDIVIDUAL role models
> and not MALE role models?

Well I'm not the one doing the portraying, but I'd imagine anyone, male
or female, beating adversity is a good role model for anyone, male or
female. Is the popular assumption that women need more female role
models than men need male role models? If so, it's obviously flawed
thinking.

> If female tournament winners against other females are touted as
proof
> of FEMALE superiority, how come the accomplishments of male athletes
> aren't touted as proof of MALE superiority?

Both arguments are foolish.

> You know all of these things are true, and you know that this is what
> we are talking about.
>
> But instead of looking at the monster in the face; instead of facing
> this issue head on...
>
> ... you fell back on a number of warm and fuzzy things that "men and
> women" might do to make them feel "empowered" because
those things
> make you feel so snuggly and contented inside, and alluding to them
> soothed whatever pain you might have felt in whatever dregs of a
> conscience you might have - and you also thought that alluding to
them
> would defang your opposition.

I'm attempting to look the monster in the face, otherwise I'd ignore it
as so many other men and women do. Instead, I'm reading, questioning,
and putting up with snide comments in order to see the monster more
clearly.

> Well, FUCK YOU, bluesmama!  FUCK YOU!  FUCK YOU!  FUCK YOU!  FUCK
YOU!

I can see you're quite passionate about the issue. Thanks for the frank
discussion.



--- UseNet To RIME Gateway {at} 3/18/05 4:59:37 PM ---