Mark Sobolewski wrote:
> In article ,
>  "bluesmama"  wrote:
>
> > Mark Sobolewski wrote:
> > > In article
,
> > >  "bluesmama"  gets
up on a pulpit and
says:
> > >
> > > > What I said was that the most important things in life - things
> > such as
> > > > love, self-confidence, supportive family, true friends, inner
> > balance
> > > > (just in case you can't think of any) can neither be built nor
> > bought.
> > > >
> > > > Though I suppose if you don't mind deluding yourself, you can
use
> > money
> > > > to rent facsimiles.
> > >
> > > That's all very nice and good, but I think you admitted that
> > > you expected the man whose currently the love in your life
> > > to produce money for the privilege of seeing you.
> > >
> > > So apparently, his love for you wasn't worth risking
> > > your own bankroll.  At least that's what I think I heard.
> > > Am I mistaken?
> > >
> > > regards,
> > > Mark Sobolewski
> >
> > I have no idea what post you're referring to, but I'm quite sure
you
> > have mistaken me for someone else.
>
> I did.  I had you confused with GoddessBaybee.  Sorry.
>
> That said, what is your position on men doing most of
> the paying for first dates?  I'm honestly not asking
> this to attack you "a ha!" but just to understand your
> overall position.
>
> > I've supported myself financially. I've supported myself and a
daughter
> > financially. Now, I'm a stay-at-home mother of two, financially
> > supported by my husband. So I'm aware of the responsibilities
involved
> > in being the financial provider, and of the responsibilities
involved
> > in being financially provided for.
>
> You have an "awareness" but it's not on the same level as men
> who not only support their children (their own flesh
> and blood) but also their able-bodied spouse as well.
>
> Children and sick spouses cannot reasonably earn an
> income to support themselves. To financially support
> another non-relative-by-blood adult is a huge step.
>
> > Scoff if you like, but there ARE responsibilities involved in being
> > financially provided for,
>
> Oh no!  I appreciate your point.  In fact, I've been
> making a similar one for years. So there!
>
> The problem is that society doesn't support men in this
> role anymore.  On the contrary: In the states, men
> are subject to reverse discrimination in the workplace
> even as many of the women who benefit from such preferences
> desire to drop out of the workplace later to be supported
> by men or in the very least, expect the man to
> successfully "compete" with her.
>
> So do you now see why I was scoffing at your notion that both
> women and men have contradictory expectations placed upon
> them?  Men don't create these contradictory "social"
> expectations: women and the law do.  Some men are now
> arguing that there's no good reason for a man to marry
> since the burdens and legal liabilities are so high.
> At least you got custody of your children.  Imagine
> if you lost the children and were then required to give
> up your home and half your income as well!
> (Note: I can see how feminism had made life more
> difficult for women, but not in the way that
> you may think.  Read on please.)
>
> Anyways, back to the point: I was dating professional
> career women 15 years ago who thoughtlessly argued on
> dates that they could have it both ways by creating
> a double standard: Equality in the workplace but when
> she got home (or on a date), the man should live
> up to 1950's chivalrous standards.  (And they actually
> used that word!)
>
> My head spun around for a number of years until I figured
> out a clear way to express my thoughts: Even if such
> a one-sided expectation came true, SHE would not be
> capable of living up to both roles!  Was she prepared
> to come home from work and then whip up a delicious
> meal aka June Cleaver and be kind and feminine and interested
> in how his day at work went?  Would she be capable of
> doing all the household and family duties to the same
> level?  (I have a cute 50's song on this theme if you'd
> like it emailed to you.  Have you ever heard
> the "Retro lounge series?")
>
> A woman friend of mine who was trying to "double dip"
> then came up with the changing role theory: During
> courtship and in the workplace, the woman should
> get equality at work and chivalry on dates but
> after marriage, he should continue to bring
> home the primary bacon AND help out with chores at home.
> Then, some women added the nasty threat that if he
> didn't go along she could divorce him later.
>
> This caused a lot of strain in relationships between
> men and women for my generation (the 30 somethings).
> Granted, this is anecdotal from what I know about my
> associates and from my perception.
>
> Additionally (don't sigh), many good hearted traditionalist
> women did find themselves between a rock and hard
> place created by the feminist agenda: Young men
> were often no longer capable of easily supporting a family
> by the age of 21 or so even as by traditional standards,
> these women were ready.  Is that part of what you mean
> by women caught between double standards?
>
> > IF you're aware of them and dedicated to
> > living up to them. My husband works hard both for his own support
and
> > satisfaction, and for our support. That's the choice he made, and
made
> > willingly. He gets fulfillment from being competent at his work,
and
> > talks with pride about providing for his family.
>
> I hate to be dictionary man, but here's the definition
> of "willingly":
>
>    1.    Disposed or inclined; prepared: I am willing to overlook
your
> mistakes.
>    2.    Acting or ready to act gladly; eagerly compliant: =B3The
spirit
> indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak=B2 (Matthew 26:41).
>    3.     Done, given, accepted, or borne voluntarily or
ungrudgingly.
> See Synonyms at voluntary.
>    4.     Of or relating to exercise of the will; volitional.
>
> I don't doubt that you didn't have a gun against his head
> and I'll even say that I don't think you pressured him either.
> However (you know there was that or a "but"), what choices
> did you think he had? Be supported by you?   It's like
> cleaning the kitchen: I willingly do it, but I know
> it has to get done.  You know what I'm saying?
>
> > I gave up a job I loved, as well as the country I was born in and
lived
> > in for almost 4 decades, and agreed to remain at home with our
children
> > until they were in school. Being a wife and mother is a job like
any
> > other, if you take it seriously, and has both perks and drawbacks,
just
> > like a paid job.
>
> Of course.  Which country if you don't mind me asking?
>
> > I might get to take a nap in the afternoon some days, but he gets
> > regular coffee and lunch breaks - and he doesn't have two children
> > hanging on his leg while he drinks his coffee or goes to the
bathroom.
>
> Hanging on your leg?  Ewwww!
>
> Most men I know with kids try to work at home some days
> and then go insane and are happy to retreat back to
> the office.
>
> Another way feminism has made life harder for all of us
> is how it's broken up the culture making it more difficult
> for you to see community assistance.  Many of the homes
> during the day are now empty while during my mother's
> time, there were at least 8 other women in yelling
> distance to help co-share chores and look after the kids
> along with her own for a few minutes while she maybe
> ran to the store for something.
>
> Bluesmama, do you see now why I'm a bit pissed?
> I would like to take all these social engineers and
> have them shot.
>
> > I spend whole days outside, gardening, reading, going for nature
walks,
> > playing with the kids - some days are very enjoyable. He gets a
regular
> > paycheck, profit-sharing, adult conversation, acknowledgment from
> > co-workers, and a feeling of purpose.
>
> HAHAHAHAHAHA!
>
> Acknowledgement from co-workers.  Did you ever read dilbert? :-)
>
> I enjoy my job too.  I consider myself very fortunate.
> I've had some jobs that really stank though.
>
> > He enjoys providing for us as
> > much as I enjoy providing a happy home and emotional support for
him
> > and the kids - some days it's harder to be enthusiastic about work
(his
> > or mine), but that's the deal we made, and the good times outnumber
the
> > bad by far.
> >
> > Then there are the days when the kids are sick, or cranky, or
fighting,
> > there are all those diapers and endless verses of "Deep in the
Heart of
> > Texas" sung to distract them...my days may not be dangerous, but
they
> > can be stressful, monotonous, and unappreciated - and if you've
never
> > been home with children for any length of time, then you have no
idea
> > how much you can miss regular adult interaction, and the
satisfaction
> > that comes from a job well done. Whatever I do, my kids undo. But
> > they're growing and learning while they're making me crazy, so
that's
> > my sacrifice - my husband's sacrifice is paying for our room and
board.
> > It evens out, as far as we're concerned - and seeing how our
> > relationship is nobody's business but our own, our concerns are all
> > that matter.
>
> Growing up, I generally tried to help out around the house
> and this began from an early age.   Do you think this
> is unreasonable for most parents?  Are most kids
> TOTALLY terrors until the age of 5 or so no matter what?
>
> > Yes, this is yet another anecdote, no quotes, no citations, no
studies,
> > no proof. And yes, I'm sure there are as many women who see men as
> > walking ATMs as there are men who see women as walking
pussy-support
> > systems;
>
> It may have a lot to do with the circles people run in.
> I'm white middle class who works in a corporate environment.
>
> That's why I recommended that maybe men who are sick of
> being viewed as an ATM try to dating women outside of
> their normal hunting ground.  Try a different perspective.
>
> > they're quite welcome to each other. I prefer a real man, and
> > an honest relationship, however politically incorrect it might be.
>
> And I can respect that.
>
> Sometimes, I try to put things into perspective by remembering
> that men of the past often had it harder: war, extreme
> poverty, etc which is precisely why so many men
> who have problems living up to manhood may be caught
> up and not realize the challenge they're faced with.
> Their bellies are full so they don't see any problem.
>
> regards,
> Mark Sobolewski

Busy paying bills online & supervising finger-painting (for which I
will pay dearly later) but wanted to say thanks for the post; just
skimmed it but will read in detail later & respond. Am enjoying the
discussion.

bluesmama



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