From: Ellen K. 

You are mixing up a lot of different things.

A Jewish PERSON is anyone born of a Jewish mother or who converts according
to Jewish law (which means an "Orthodox" conversion).  Jewish LAW
is established in the Talmud and codes.

Many Jewish PEOPLE do not adhere to Jewish LAW in their daily lives. I'm
sure everyone here knows Jews who do not observe the Sabbath or the dietary
laws.  The "reform" and "conservative" movements, while
comprised of Jewish PEOPLE, have instituted many practices that are not in
accordance with Jewish LAW.  To cite a non-political example, they use
musical instruments in their Sabbath services.

To LIVE in the land of Israel is part of normative Judaism.   However,
the establishment of a STATE in the land of Israel is expected by normative
Judaism to be brought about by the messiah, not by secular powers.

The present state of Israel is a secular state, established by the UN. G-d
is not even mentioned in the national anthem.  In fact there were protests
in the Orthodox communities at the time the secular state was under
consideration, on the grounds that while every Jew who could do so should
LIVE in the land of Israel, there should not be a Jewish STATE until the
coming of the messiah.  While today the general position in the Orthodox
community is that since the state does exist it should be recognized and
supported, there are still groups who, although large numbers of their
members live in the land of Israel, do not support the secular state and
their members who live there refrain from voting in Israeli elections.

Zionism per se was a secular movement, part of the same phenomenon that
resulted in the Jewish socialist movement --  a secularization of selected
Jewish religious ideas but without the religion.  Normative Judaism says
live in the land of Israel, Zionism says establish a secular state in the
land of Israel.  Normative Judaism says a person has a duty to help the
less fortunate, socialism says make a government that takes from the rich
and gives to the poor.  (Actually the early kibbutzim were probably the
only place socialism ever actually worked, due to the fact that the
residents were there by idealistic choice.)

From a secular political standpoint, the establishment of a state where
Jews could be guaranteed entry was unfortunately proven necessary by the
Holocaust.  Even the United States turned away refugees fleeing the Nazis. 
In view of the fact that the people who are today screaming that the Jews
took away the "Palestinians'" (in quotes because there were no
"Palestinians" then) land did not scream when Hitler was
exterminating 6,000,000 Jews, it's difficult to attribute their current
position to humanitarianism.

Another inconsistency (to be polite) in the statements of the anti-Israel
people is that these are the same people who would rightly say it is wrong
to have residency restrictions based on race or religion, e.g. preventing
black people from living in certain neighborhoods, but support the position
that no Jews should be living in the land of Israel.   Why is "no
blacks allowed" wrong, but "Judenrein"
right?








On Sun, 27 Nov 2005 10:03:44 +0000, Adam
<""4thwormcastfromthemolehill\"{at}the field.near the
bridge"> wrote in
message :

>Ellen K. wrote:
>> How did you get to be so filled with hate?
>>
>
>That is the question I have been asking you for most of this thread.
>
>On what grounds did jewish people think that they had the right to
>forcibly drive people out of their homes, take their land  & create war,
>death & destruction on a large scale?
>
>That the land was given to them by God?
>
>To quote just one of your mails:
>
>"One crazy person doing something and attributing it to his religion is
>clearly one crazy person.
>
>Multiple official representatives of a religion, all saying the same
>thing and attributing it to their religion, is a strong indication that
>the religion in question can legitimately be interpreted in accordance
>with their statements."
>
>So this was clearly not the action of one crazy person but that multiple
>official repesentatives were all saying the same thing.
>
>Or are you saying the whole thing was a purely nationalist struggle for
>survival with no religious element?
>
>Adam
>
>
>> On Fri, 25 Nov 2005 18:35:24 +0000, Adam
>> <""4thwormcastfromthemolehill\"{at}the field.near
the bridge"> wrote in
>> message :
>>
>>
>>>Zionism is a straightforward land theft with
>>>violence & menaces & terror on behalf of all jews.
>>
>>

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