From: "Gary Britt" 

Just a couple of minor nits.

The Kibbutz experiment was not a successful experiment in socialism, and
has fallen into disfavor in Israel, isn't that true?  Socialism isn't the
government taking from the rich and giving to the poor at the point of a
gun.  Its government using guns to make everyone equally poor, except for
the government elite and their buddies.

In general your explanation was enlightening, but I think it does give
short shrift to the level of religious involvement in official state
functions and laws.  Israel has free speech unless you speak to someone
about another religion.  That's a free speech restriction based solely upon
religious beliefs being voted into law.  The religious Jews and orthodoxy
in Israel participate in parliament and the creation of the laws of Israel
and are deeply intertwined with the kind of laws made.  So intertwined that
I don't think Israel can properly be called a secular state.

Gary

"Ellen K."  wrote in message
news:q2p5p15kdj1m49r29frchbe9hk5rt1boaa{at}4ax.com...
> You are mixing up a lot of different things.
>
> A Jewish PERSON is anyone born of a Jewish mother or who converts
> according to Jewish law (which means an "Orthodox"
conversion).  Jewish
> LAW is established in the Talmud and codes.
>
> Many Jewish PEOPLE do not adhere to Jewish LAW in their daily lives.
> I'm sure everyone here knows Jews who do not observe the Sabbath or the
> dietary laws.  The "reform" and "conservative"
movements, while
> comprised of Jewish PEOPLE, have instituted many practices that are not
> in accordance with Jewish LAW.  To cite a non-political example, they
> use musical instruments in their Sabbath services.
>
> To LIVE in the land of Israel is part of normative Judaism.   However,
> the establishment of a STATE in the land of Israel is expected by
> normative Judaism to be brought about by the messiah, not by secular
> powers.
>
> The present state of Israel is a secular state, established by the UN.
> G-d is not even mentioned in the national anthem.  In fact there were
> protests in the Orthodox communities at the time the secular state was
> under consideration, on the grounds that while every Jew who could do so
> should LIVE in the land of Israel, there should not be a Jewish STATE
> until the coming of the messiah.  While today the general position in
> the Orthodox community is that since the state does exist it should be
> recognized and supported, there are still groups who, although large
> numbers of their members live in the land of Israel, do not support the
> secular state and their members who live there refrain from voting in
> Israeli elections.
>
> Zionism per se was a secular movement, part of the same phenomenon that
> resulted in the Jewish socialist movement --  a secularization of
> selected Jewish religious ideas but without the religion.  Normative
> Judaism says live in the land of Israel, Zionism says establish a
> secular state in the land of Israel.  Normative Judaism says a person
> has a duty to help the less fortunate, socialism says make a government
> that takes from the rich and gives to the poor.  (Actually the early
> kibbutzim were probably the only place socialism ever actually worked,
> due to the fact that the residents were there by idealistic choice.)
>
> From a secular political standpoint, the establishment of a state where
> Jews could be guaranteed entry was unfortunately proven necessary by the
> Holocaust.  Even the United States turned away refugees fleeing the
> Nazis.  In view of the fact that the people who are today screaming that
> the Jews took away the "Palestinians'" (in quotes because
there were no
> "Palestinians" then) land did not scream when Hitler was exterminating
> 6,000,000 Jews, it's difficult to attribute their current position to
> humanitarianism.
>
> Another inconsistency (to be polite) in the statements of the
> anti-Israel people is that these are the same people who would rightly
> say it is wrong to have residency restrictions based on race or
> religion, e.g. preventing black people from living in certain
> neighborhoods, but support the position that no Jews should be living in
> the land of Israel.   Why is "no blacks allowed" wrong, but
"Judenrein"
> right?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, 27 Nov 2005 10:03:44 +0000, Adam
> <""4thwormcastfromthemolehill\"{at}the field.near the
bridge"> wrote in
> message :
>
> >Ellen K. wrote:
> >> How did you get to be so filled with hate?
> >>
> >
> >That is the question I have been asking you for most of this thread.
> >
> >On what grounds did jewish people think that they had the right to
> >forcibly drive people out of their homes, take their land  & create war,
> >death & destruction on a large scale?
> >
> >That the land was given to them by God?
> >
> >To quote just one of your mails:
> >
> >"One crazy person doing something and attributing it to his religion is
> >clearly one crazy person.
> >
> >Multiple official representatives of a religion, all saying the same
> >thing and attributing it to their religion, is a strong indication that
> >the religion in question can legitimately be interpreted in accordance
> >with their statements."
> >
> >So this was clearly not the action of one crazy person but that multiple
> >official repesentatives were all saying the same thing.
> >
> >Or are you saying the whole thing was a purely nationalist struggle for
> >survival with no religious element?
> >
> >Adam
> >
> >
> >> On Fri, 25 Nov 2005 18:35:24 +0000, Adam
> >> <""4thwormcastfromthemolehill\"{at}the
field.near the bridge"> wrote in
> >> message :
> >>
> >>
> >>>Zionism is a straightforward land theft with
> >>>violence & menaces & terror on behalf of all jews.
> >>
> >>
>

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