-=> Quoting Dennis Haddox to Scott Adams <=-

 DH> Part III

       Today we learn Dennis is Marks father and wants him
       to join the emporer...err..sorry too much reading
       of SW books...
 
 SA>         Please show us here so the evidence can be broken down.
 SA>         Not just words please.  Please post logs, statements by
 SA>         users/players, screen captures and such.  I hope you
 SA> did
 SA>         do your homework.  But being so long i'm sure that
 SA>         stuff is thrown out by now.  Oh well.
 DH> 
 DH> Yes, but you didn't believe it then so it wouldn't make much
 DH> difference now would it?

     Because we didn't see evidence.  We only saw words.   
 
 SA>           in your league.  Also stupidity by them admiting to
 SA> them
 SA>           cheating.  That has occured.
 DH> 
 DH> In the 777 game, after I was onto them and deleted their accounts
 DH> here on my board. They went to other boards, mainly xbit and
 DH> one of them started running his mouth, probably because they
 DH> got kicked off here and was mad they couldn't cheat here.
 DH> He admitted outright to having multiple accounts. He was also
 DH> one of those that gave us info on others. He said "What is
 DH> wrong with having dupe accounts, I know people that have
 DH> as many as 6 dupe accounts all over this league.
 DH> When a couple of my players and I started to look and see
 DH> where these accounts were with a little investigative work and
 DH> some deductive reasoning, that is when we started to point
 DH> them out.

     No comment on league 777 since I'e not been there.
 
 SA>          Now with these ideas in the open lets get back to
 SA> cheating
 SA>          in our league.  In my experience we have had cheaters
 SA>          we have caught and dealt with.  No board besides yours
 SA> has
 SA>          ever been thrown out (though I did not per se do it
 SA> mark
 SA>          did).  In my league 033 and now the merged 933 league
 SA>          we have mainly found the stupid multiple accounts.
 DH> 
 DH> Scott, I can't believe you are trying to piss in my face and tell
 DH> me it's raining. I have always thought you as on of the more
 DH> honest ones. Let me refresh your memory a bit here. 
 DH> Ok we were in the dispute on how to handle these boards that
 DH> were going up and down when they lost their edge, as I have
 DH> already discussed. I refused to let this issue drop. You said
 DH> that since Hoover ran the league, it was out of your hands and
 DH> it was his call. Then out of the fucking blue, Hoover sends me
 DH> a message saying I have a dupe player from my board playing
 DH> on another board. This is what really pissed me off. First of all,
 DH> do you see how the same thing has happened in all 3 of these
 DH> leagues? Try to get something done about the blatant cheating
 DH> and the LC turns around and accused YOU of cheating.

     But I guess it works both ways. Dev had accusations but
     if I recall no direct proof just like your side of the
     story.  I guess it works both ways sometimes.  Now you
     can see how we feel when things like that occur.

 DH> Anyway, I knew for a FACT that all the players that were playing
 DH> here were NOT playing anywhere else. All the players that were
 DH> playing here were local. They were people I knew. Just to make
 DH> sure though, I either called them up or drove over to their house
 DH> and asked each one of them. They all said no, we aren't playing
 DH> anywhere else. If they were lying, I would have known. They
 DH> were not lying.

     Drove to their house? hmm..To me that would indicate some
     doubt in your mind if you were drastic enough to do that.
     Something I'd have to set aside in the back of my mind
     for later.  
        
 DH> I then decided that I have had enough of this shit, I was pulling
 DH> out of this league and ridding myself of that moron Hoover.
 DH> I emailed or netmailed you and told you I was pulling out, to take
 DH> me out of this network asap. You had replied asking if I wished
 DH> to remain in the message bases, which I also declined. I told
 DH> you straight out, no, that I have had enough of Hoover, I want
 DH> totally out of the network. You said ok, and that was that.
 DH> Then a couple days later, I hear Hoover is ranting that he kicked
 DH> us out of the league. He didn't do shit. He is just a lying moron.
 DH> I had already disconnected everything and removed all reference
 DH> to this network from my mailer's configuration days before when
 DH> I had messaged you.

     Not quite the exact events i recall.  I'd have to backtrack
     the netmails and emails to pull dates/times but I don't
     desire to since it would not get anywhere.  I'll just say
     not 100% accurate and leave it at that.
 
 SA>          But the point is persepctive is the key to everything.
 SA>          As a sysop in a league you don't see every detail.
 DH> 
 DH> Yes...I do.

     So you can see ever player's real name?  You can see the
     League info that others can?  If so then you found a major
     but in BRE.  There are thigns only a LC sees.  Right
     there that shows you didn't have the same perspective.

     You only see one side in front of the game not behind the
     scenes.  Totally different POV.
 
 SA>          Every problem.  Every fact.  You only see your side
 SA>          and your board losing battle after battle in a
 SA> desperate
 SA>          fight for survival.  You example what info you do have
 SA>          like scores and think "they must be cheating".  That's
 SA>          not the case that's just your human mind trying to
 SA> resolve
 SA>          a situation it can't deal with.
 DH> 
 DH> No, that isn't the case at all. We don't mind getting our asses
 DH> kicked. But when we do, we analyze what happened. Did we not get
 DH> enough participation from every player? When did the packets
 DH> process inbound and when were the outbound sent? What relation
 DH> to packet processing did we play? How many times and how often
 DH> did each player log on and play a few turns? Did we miscalculate
 DH> the size difference or did we just get too emotionally involved and
 DH> knew we would get beat but wanted to cause as much pain as we
 DH> could on our way down? Was somebody out of town that day
 DH> and miss playing altogether, or even 2 or 3 days? Was our
 DH> intelligence data incorrect? Who were the opponents allies? What
 DH> were the opponents growth rate during the battle? Growth rate
 DH> of allies during the battle? We look at everything.
 DH> When you analyze like that, you notice easily when something is
 DH> not right, so you keep an eye on that.

     Yes for that board in question.  Not for the entire league.
     I know the players on my board as you do yours.  But
     I have no clue what occurs on yours or say Marks other than
     maybe a playing time based on some TT and maybe a actual
     msg in the game itself.  
 
 SA>          But as the saying goes.  Those who protest or deny too
 SA> much
 SA>          tend to have something to hide (metaphorically or for
 SA> real).
 DH> 
 DH> Something to hide? I have nothing to hide. All I have is this
 DH> rage because these cheaters get away with it even when they
 DH> are caught and then the LC accuses you of cheating when
 DH> you have never cheated in a league in your life.

     I don't know.  That's how we feel on the LC every time a
     sore loser or board that doesn't know how to play or such
     accuses of cheating.  Its in every league I've been in
     and every league that will continue to exist.  Theres
     always one in just about every game that complains though
     95% of them are just baseless.
 
 SA>          Now you may call me names if you want I won't.  I only
 SA>          am trying to reason with you and hope you think about
 DH> 
 DH> I won't call you any names even though you did lie once in this
 DH> post, but I will give you the benefit of the doubt this time and
 DH> just chalk it up as you not remembering the facts clearly.

     Where?  Point it out please.

 
 SA>          Good day and good reading.  I hope you consider the
 SA>          above in friendship (what little you may think we
 SA>          have left) and not a attack.  You started the attacks
 SA>          I'm replying to them.
 DH> 
 DH> I don't feel I am attacking. It is more of a vent to release the
 DH> rage because people spreading lies about me and false
 DH> accusations about us cheating. I want to make sure that
 DH> anybody that reads these messages will know what kind
 DH> of slimy LC's run them that will even band together to try
 DH> and make their lies believable. I have nothing to hide so
 DH> I have nothing to lose when I uncover what kind of
 DH> cheating goes on in some of these leagues and how the
 DH> LC responds when you start pointing it out.

     And we've shown our rage by those who accuse us of baseless
     and unproven things.  That cheating is called that
     by every tom and dick out there and will continue till
     the final bbs dies out there eventually.  We have rage
     that it continues and we can't do much until there is
     clear and distinct proof.  In the past there have been
     such proof and acted on but nothing we've seen in the
     last few years say otherwise.

     When dale ran his league 088 around...'96 or so
     I and Andy thought they were seriously cheating.  Then
     Dale and me setup a demo league just him and me and
     he gave me all his nice tricks of the trade.  Within
     2 weeks I showed to myself it was his skill that was
     doing it and if I could do such things then maybe others
     could.  I ended the accusations since frankly I was
     proven wrong and had no facts in the first place.  So
     I've been in your shoes.










... "Not everyone back home buys the party line." - Hague
--- Fringe BBS