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From: Mark Hill 
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Subject: Re: Coal miners ask Obama to stop 'absolute lies'
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2012 21:37:29 -0600
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On 10/24/2012 7:59 PM, NotMe wrote:
> "Mark Hill"  wrote in message
> news:k66bgt$hll$1{at}dont-email.me...
>> On 10/23/2012 12:15 AM, NotMe wrote:
>>> "Galluping to a new leader"  
wrote in message
>>> news:k62c3f$3eh$1{at}dont-email.me...
>>>> On 10/21/2012 7:05 PM, NotMe wrote:
>>>>> In the end the industy had to concede that the problem
was not the EPA
>>>>> but
>>>>> that NG was so much cheaper that coal could not compete.
>>>>
>>>> The problem _was_ EPA, which is why the regs were thrown out.
>>>>
>>>> The solution is natural gas, but Obama doesn't like fracking.
>>>
>>> And now long ago the solution was coal and the big hammer was EPA (ne
>>> obama) rules?
>>
>> What is (ne obama)?
>>
>>>> He's going to ruin this nation's energy cost profile:
>>>>
>>>>
http://stateimpact.npr.org/pennsylvania/2012/05/04/obamas-newly-proposed-fracki
ng-rules/
>>>>
>>>> Obama's Newly Proposed Fracking Rules Opposed by Both Sides
>>>>
>>>>
http://thehill.com/blogs/e2-wire/e2-wire/234577-white-house-gas-fracking-rule-o
n-track-
>>>>
>>>> Top Obama energy aide: 'Fracking' rules coming by year's end
>>>
>>> The only fracking rules I've seen that had any teeth were those rolled
>>> out  in Texas and the hard reality there was they were false teeth.
>>
>> http://money.cnn.com/2012/05/04/news/economy/fracking_rules/index.htm
>>
>> NEW YORK (CNNMoney) -- The Obama administration tightened rules on
>> hydraulic fracturing Friday, requiring the disclosure of chemicals used in
>> the process when done on federal and American Indian lands.
>>
>> The new rules will also require additional testing of oil and gas well
>> construction and require the industry to have a management plan for the
>> water used in the process.
>>
>> "This proposed rule will strengthen the requirements for hydraulic
>> fracturing performed on federal and Indian lands in order to build public
>> confidence and protect the health of American communities, while ensuring
>> continued access to the important resources that make up our energy
>> economy," the Interior Department said in a statement.
>>
>>> I paid for my engineering schooling working in the oil patch and made a
>>> good living subsequently both inside and out of the industry.
>>>
>>> I don't trust the oil or gas industy as far as I  can hand
toss a section
>>> of 24 inch pipe.
>>
>> Feel free to trust OPEC, they always have had our best interests at heart,
>> and they create so many high paying American jobs at home...
>
> And we have any reason to trust the oil industy be they on or off shore?

Oh no, they only employ millions of Americans as it is...

And they'd like to employ more:


http://money.cnn.com/2011/09/07/news/economy/oil_jobs/index.htm

With looser restrictions, the industry says it could deliver 1.4 million 
new jobs, boost tax rolls by $800 billion, and increase domestic energy 
production almost 50%.


But Obama SHUT down federal leases and Gulf drilling.

Obama wants oil companies to use non-producing leases and bankrupt 
themselves and the USA.

> Back in the 70 (recall the long lines?)

I recall an OPEC embargo that caused long lines.

I also recall it occurred immediately after what was, for the time, 
known as "peak oil" production in the USA.

Some coincidence.

OPEC sent prices from $3/brl. to $12/brl.

Took us another Dem fuel crisis (Carter 1980s) and spiked interest rates 
(well into the 90s) before we cam close to recovering OUR domestic 
production levels.

> within 24 hours of the  price
> controls there were no more lines.

Bullshit lie.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1973_oil_crisis

Government price controls further exacerbated the crisis in the United 
States,[30] which limited the price of "old oil" (that already 
discovered) while allowing newly discovered oil to be sold at a higher 
price, resulting in a withdrawal of old oil from the market and the 
creation of artificial scarcity. The rule also discouraged alternative 
energies or more efficient fuels or technologies from being 
developed.[30] The rule had been intended to promote oil 
exploration.[33] This scarcity was dealt with by rationing of gasoline 
(which occurred in many countries), with motorists facing long lines at 
gas stations beginning in summer 1972 and increasing by summer 1973.[30]

To help reduce consumption, in 1974 a national maximum speed limit of 55 
mph (about 88 km/h) was imposed through the Emergency Highway Energy 
Conservation Act. Development of the United States Strategic Petroleum 
Reserve began in 1975, and in 1977, the cabinet-level Department of 
Energy was created, followed by the National Energy Act of 1978.

Year-round daylight saving time was implemented from January 6, 1974, to 
February 23, 1975. The move spawned significant criticism because it 
forced many children to commute to school before sunrise. The 
pre-existing daylight saving rules, calling for the clocks to be 
advanced one hour on the last Sunday in April, were restored in 1976.

Gas stations abandoned during the crisis were sometimes used for other 
purposes. This station at Potlatch, Washington was turned into a revival 
hall.
The crisis also prompted a call for individuals and businesses to 
conserve energy, most notably a campaign by the Advertising Council 
using the tag line "Don't Be Fuelish."[40] Many newspapers carried 
full-page advertisements that featured cut-outs which could be attached 
to light switches, reading "Last Out, Lights Out: Don't Be Fuelish".

By 1980, there were no longer full-size luxury cars with a 130-inch (3.3 
m) wheelbase and gross weights averaging 4,500 pounds (2,041 kg). The 
automakers began phasing out the traditional front engine/rear wheel 
drive layout in favor of more efficient front engine/front wheel drive 
designs.

Though not regulated by the new legislation, auto racing groups 
voluntarily began conserving as well. In 1974 the 24 Hours of Daytona 
was canceled and NASCAR reduced all race distances by 10%; the 12 Hours 
of Sebring race was cancelled. In 1976, the U.S. Congress created the 
Weatherization Assistance Program to help low-income homeowners and 
renters deal with rising heating costs by reducing their demand through 
advanced insulation.

> What most folk did not know was that the
> industy was running out of places to store the excess.

Yes, when folks can not afford to buy oil it does tend to mount up.

That was the price of the US supporting Israel.

But let the chronology speak in lieu of your lies:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1973_oil_crisis

October 12— The United States initiates Operation Nickel Grass, an overt 
strategic airlift operation to provide replacement weapons and supplies 
to Israel during the Yom Kippur War. This followed similar Soviet moves 
to supply the Arab side.
  October 16 – Saudi Arabia, Iran, Iraq, Abu Dhabi, Kuwait, and Qatar 
unilaterally raise posted prices by 17% to $3.65 per barrel and announce 
production cuts.[19]
  October 17—OAPEC oil ministers agree to use oil as a weapon to 
influence the West's support of Israel in the Yom Kippur war. They 
recommend an embargo against non-complying states and mandate a cut in 
exports.
  October 19—US President Richard Nixon requests Congress to appropriate 
$2.2billion in emergency aid to Israel. This decision triggered a 
collective Arab response.[13] Libya immediately proclaims an embargo on 
oil exports to the United States;[14] Saudi Arabia and other Arab oil 
producing states follow suite the next day.[14]
  October 26—The Yom Kippur War ends.
  November 5—Arab producers announce a 25% output cut. A further 5% cut 
is threatened.
  November 23—The Arab embargo is extended to Portugal, Rhodesia, and 
South Africa.
  November 27—U.S. President Richard Nixon signs the Emergency Petroleum 
Allocation Act authorizing price, production, allocation and marketing 
controls.
  December 9—Arab oil ministers agree to another five percent cut for 
non-friendly countries for January 1974.
  December 25—Arab oil ministers cancel the five percent output cut for 
January. Saudi oil minister Ahmed Zaki Yamani promises a ten percent 
OPEC production rise.
  January 7–9, 1974—OPEC decides to freeze prices until April 1.
  January 18—Israel signs a withdrawal agreement to pull back to the 
east side of the Suez Canal.
  February 11 – United States Secretary of State Henry Kissinger unveils 
the Project Independence plan to make U.S. energy independent.
  February 12 – 14—Progress in Arab-Israeli disengagement brings 
discussion of oil strategy among the heads of state of Algeria, Egypt, 
Syria and Saudi Arabia.
  March 5—Israel withdraws the last of its troops from the west side of 
the Suez Canal.
  March 17—Arab oil ministers, with the exception of Libya, announce the 
end of the embargo against the United States.
  May 31—Diplomacy by Henry Kissinger produces a disengagement agreement 
on the Syrian front.
  December 1974—The 1973–1974 stock market crash ends.

Government price controls further exacerbated the crisis in the United 
States,[30] which limited the price of "old oil" (that already 
discovered) while allowing newly discovered oil to be sold at a higher 
price, resulting in a withdrawal of old oil from the market and the 
creation of artificial scarcity.


_Classic governmental MEDDLING_

So very much akin to the Obama administration's failures and 
bankruptcies in "green energy":


The complete list of faltering or bankrupt green-energy companies:
  1.Evergreen Solar ($25 million)*
  2.SpectraWatt ($500,000)*
  3.Solyndra ($535 million)*
  4.Beacon Power ($43 million)*
  5.Nevada Geothermal ($98.5 million)
  6.SunPower ($1.2 billion)
  7.First Solar ($1.46 billion)
  8.Babcock and Brown ($178 million)
  9.EnerDel’s subsidiary Ener1 ($118.5 million)*
  10.Amonix ($5.9 million)
  11.Fisker Automotive ($529 million)
  12.Abound Solar ($400 million)*
  13.A123 Systems ($279 million)*
  14.Willard and Kelsey Solar Group ($700,981)*
  15.Johnson Controls ($299 million)
  16.Schneider Electric ($86 million)
  17.Brightsource ($1.6 billion)
  18.ECOtality ($126.2 million)
  19.Raser Technologies ($33 million)*
  20.Energy Conversion Devices ($13.3 million)*
  21.Mountain Plaza, Inc. ($2 million)*
  22.Olsen’s Crop Service and Olsen’s Mills Acquisition Company ($10 
million)*
  23.Range Fuels ($80 million)*
  24.Thompson River Power ($6.5 million)*
  25.Stirling Energy Systems ($7 million)*
  26.Azure Dynamics ($5.4 million)*
  27.GreenVolts ($500,000)
  28.Vestas ($50 million)
  29.LG Chem’s subsidiary Compact Power ($151 million)
  30.Nordic Windpower ($16 million)*
  31.Navistar ($39 million)
  32.Satcon ($3 million)*
  33.Konarka Technologies Inc. ($20 million)*
  34.Mascoma Corp. ($100 million)


Because GOVERNMENT can not trump the market and can _never_ pick winners.

Nor should it.

Learn from this, old man.

>> We should of course import MORE middle east oil and let many more soldiers
>> die to keep that region stable.
>
> There were alternatives going back decades but due to oil interest those
> were 'put aside'

The "alternatives" account for less than 1% of total US domestic energy 
production.

The "alternatives" have included a disastrous corn-ethanol scam that 
spiked food prices.

"Alternatives" like wind and solar can NEVER power your car or take a 
semi load cross country.

Why do you Dems want to RUIN this nation on the corrupt meddling altar 
of your "alternatives"?

>>> Fracking can work safely but not under the rules we have now nor under
>>> the rules we will have in the future (the industy controls the
>>> legislative
>>> process both in the various states and in Washington.)
>>
>> Thank you for enunciating the Democrat  position of killing off American
>> energy independence.
>
> You know not of what you speak.

You lie like the common paid Dem shill that you are.

> Claims of safety of fracking go  back to
> the 50's where the industy claimed fracking with atomic devices was
> perfectly safe.

Complete non sequitur, no one is fracking with nukes, nor did nuke 
powered shale oil ever get past testing.

You conflate science 'testing' with actual oil field workover.

And you do it like the common Dem liar that we know you to be.

> You're aware there is an ocean of water under NV that is
> too contaminated to drink or use in any practical way?

You're aware that nuclear testing in Nevada was for defense purposes and 
NOT fracking, you common Dem liar!

> Energy independence will come only when the American people have verifiable
> practical alternatives to chose from.

Oh great deflection.

How's corn-ethanol working out?

Starve any children in the 3rd world lately, Dem?
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