CR> No, the Calvinist view makes God totally sovereign over 
 CR> salvation.  You may 
 CR> not like the fact that He chooses to save some and that He chooses to 
 CR> reprobate others, the fact is that people are not lost because God 
cannot 
 CR> do anything about it--they are lost because He chooses not to give them 
 CR> grace and instead reprobates them.  (See Romans 9-11).  There is a big 
 CR> difference between not being able to save them and choosing not to save 
 CR> them.
This is something else that seems inconsistent in Calvinist doctrine.  It 
doesn't take power away from God to say that he chooses some and not others, 
yet it does take power away from God to say that he chooses to give us the 
choice?  Either way God has imposed limits on himself, because he does not 
and cannot save everyone.
 CR> 5 The LORD saw how great man's wickedness on the earth 
 CR> had become, and that 
 CR> every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only 
 CR> evil all the time. 
My answer to this is Romas 1:20.  "For since the creation of the world God's 
invisible qualities - his eternal power and divine nature - have been clearly 
seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without 
excuse."
Though our thoughts may be evil, we are ALL aware of God's power and nature.  
And we must all choose which we will follow.
 CR> So Jesus' blood is essentially powerless for those who freely reject it?
 CR> If this is the case then God is unable to save those who reject Him.  
But 
 CR> the Bible says that ALL have rejected Him!
It aslo says that all are aware of his nature, and that he wants all to be 
saved. (Romans 1:20, 1Timothy 2:3-4)
 CR> If Jesus' blood is available to all why do they then reject it?   
Romasn 1:18-19,21  "The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against 
all godlessness and wickedness of men who supress the truth by their 
wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God 
has made it plain to them.... For although they knew God, they neither 
glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile 
abd their foolish hearts were darkened."
All men know what can be known about God, yet some, due to their wickedness 
and futile thinking, choose to supress that knowledge.
 CR> Secondly, the Scripture says that no one can 
 CR> come by free will alone.  They must be born again and 
 CR> to come to Him (See John 3:3, 7; 6:44-45, 65).
First off, I don't see what John 3:3 has to do with this subject, though it 
will be nice when we discuss immersion!   As for the others, Romans 1 
seems to say that God has enabled all men to come if they head the call.
 CR> The answer is that God has in His infinite wisdom reprobated them and 
 CR> decided to save only those He chose before the foundation of the world.
Assuming that when the Bible speaks of "the elect" it refers to a specific 
list of names as opposed to the group of people who would be called his 
church.  As I explained, I believe to Michael, it is gramatically incorrect 
to think that this is a specific list, because we are then forced to change 
the meaning of the word "all" in 2 Timothy.
 CR> The fact is, God never rejects anyone who comes to Him 
 CR> but the flip side of it is that no one will come to Him except those  
CR> who have been elected.  
I understand your point-of-view here, but doesn't it seem to make the whole 
creation futile?  Not to mention that it ascribes a level of foreknowledge to 
God that he himself says he does not have. (Jeremiah 3:19-20, Genesis 22:12)
 CR> No, under Calvinist doctrine the unelect are reprobated 
 CR> by God's sovereign 
 CR> choice, they are not unsavable.  He could save them if He wanted to do 
so 
 CR> but He chooses not to because it brings glory to Him that some are 
damned 
 CR> and some are saved.  
That doesn't make any sense.  Wouldn't his glory be shown even more by saving 
everyone?
 CR> Romans 9:16,22-24
Nice verse, but I think you are taking it out of context.  The point of the 
passage is to show that gentiles can become chirstians without the Law, 
bevause has decreed, through his mercy, that they can.
 CR> God always allows humans to choose their own destiny.  The catch is that 
 CR> they always choose hell unless He irresisibly draws 
 CR> them to repentance.
That makes no sense.  You're saying that he allows them to choose, but he 
decides what they will choose.
 CR> He asked, "Well, what if a man came to altar and sincerely 
 CR> wanted to be saved but God rejected him instead?  
Let's not bother discussing this part.  I understand what you believe, but I 
think Calvin creates a circular argument.  If everything else he said is 
true, then this premise must be true.
Robby
--- Maximus 3.01
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