Hi ROBBY,
.MSGID: 1:133/8003.0 3543d0da
.REPLY: 1:229/107@fidonet.org 08af6982
 RW>         However, this predestination is based on God's
 RW> foreknowledge.  ROMANS 8:28-30 would indicate this.  So it
 RW> seems to be, not that God -forces- people to be saved, but that
 RW> He knows from the beginning that they will be.
Me>>  God does not force anyone to be saved.  He enables us to be saved and 
draws us irresistibly to respond freely to His call.  We desire and want to 
be saved by our own free choice and response.  (See John 6:37, 44-45-65, 
Romans 2:4)
Robby>>>But did God know which individuals would be saved or that a group 
of people would be saved?  The references to God wanting "all men" to be 
saved would to preclude the former.  Read Jeremiah 3:19-20 and see if that 
changes you thinking on foreknowledge.  Also helpful are Genesis 22:12 and 
Exodus 32:9
Me>>God knows every single person who will be saved and the exact number of 
people who will be saved because He decreed it from the beginning.  If He 
doesn't know then His omniscience is non-existent.  God knows all things 
past, present, and future.
Jeremiah 3:19-20 is a prophecy spoken to the nation of Israel as a covenant 
community, not to individuals.  Also, do you really believe God did not 
know that Israel would go astray?  Of course not.  This is merely another 
anthropomorphism to help us understand God.  Genesis 22:12 was God's test 
of Abraham's faith.  God would never have allowed it to proceed further but 
*Abraham* had no way of knowing this.  He was out of the loop.
Exodus 32:9 refers to ALL of us, Robby.  We are a stiff-necked people, even 
those of us who are saved.  That's why we need God's help and grace to 
change.
1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith
Chapter 3 Of Election
3. By the decree of God, for the manifestation of His glory, some men and 
angels are predestined, or foreordained to eternal life through Jesus 
Christ,(7) to the praise of His glorious grace;(8) others being left to act 
in their sin to their just condemnation, to the praise of His glorious 
justice.(9)
7. 1Ti 5:21; Mt 25:34.
 8. Eph 1:5-6.
 9. Ro 9:22-23; Jude 4.
4. These angels and men thus predestined and foreordained, are particularly 
and unchangeably designed, and their number so certain and definite, that 
it cannot be either increased or diminished.(10)
10. 2Ti 2:19; Jn 13:18.
5. Those of mankind that are predestined to life, God, before the 
foundation of the world was laid, according to His eternal and immutable 
purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of His will, hath chosen 
in Christ unto everlasting glory, OUT OF HIS MERE FREE GRACE AND LOVE,(11) 
WITHOUT ANY OTHER THING IN THE CREATURE AS A CONDITION OR CAUSE MOVING 
HIM THEREUNTO.
(12)
11. Eph 1:4,9,11; Ro 8:30; 2Ti 1:9; 1Th 5:9.
 12. Ro 9:13,16; Eph 2:5,12.
6. As God hath appointed the elect unto glory, so He hath, by the eternal 
and most free purpose of His will, FOREORDAINED ALL THE MEANS 
THEREUNTO;(13) wherefore they who are elect, BEING FALLEN IN ADAM, ARE 
REDEEMED BY CHRIST,(14) are effectually called unto faith in Christ, by His 
Spirit working in due season, are justified, adopted, sanctified,(15) and 
kept by His power through faith unto salvation;(16) neither are any other 
redeemed by Christ, or effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, 
and saved, but the elect only.(17)
13. 1Pe 1:2; 2Th 2:13.
 14. 1Th 5:9-10.
 15. Ro 8:30; 2Th 2:13.
 16. 1Pe 1:5.
 17. Jn 10:26; 17:9; 6:64.
7. The doctrine of this high mystery of predestination is to be handled 
with special prudence and care, that men attending the will of God revealed 
in His Word, and yeilding obedience thereunto, may, from the certainty of 
their effectual vocation, be assured of their eternal election;(18) so 
shall this doctrine afford matter of praise,
(19) reverence, and admiration of God, and of humility,(20) *DILIGENCE, AND 
ABUNDANT CONSOLATION TO ALL THAT SINCERELY OBEY* the gospel.(21)
18. 1Th 1:4-5; 2Pe 1:10.
 19. Eph 1:6; Ro 11:33.
 20. Ro. 11:5-6,20.
 21. Lk 10:20.
If salvation is totally by grace (Ephesians 2:8-9), then God has to choose 
us before we do anything good or bad.  If He chooses us based on His 
foreknowledge that we will be good or that we will choose Jesus, then even 
choosing Jesus becomes a good work that initiates our salvation.  In a 
sense the choice gives us merit with God that we should be saved.  But we 
know that none us merits ANYTHING.  If we got what we deserved it would be 
separation from God for eternity.  That's why it's all grace from beginning 
to end, including our ability to respond to the Gospel, to repent, and to 
live a holy life in Christ.
Sincerely in Christ,
Charlie Ray, 
Chaplain
1 Timothy 4:16
Watch your life and doctrine closely.
Persevere in them, because if you do,
you will save both yourself and your hearers.  (NIV).
chaplain@isgroup.net
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 * WR  # 461 * Sola Scriptura, Solus Christus, Sola Gratia, Sola Fide.
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