Hi ROBBY,
***snip***
 MJ> What side would you rather be on? The one that gives all the credi
 MJ> God or the one that takes some of the credit from God?
RD>The Arminian point of view does not take credit or power away from God,
RD>simply follows the scripture which shows us that we must take responsib
RD>for our choices.
And so does the Westminster Confession of Faith and the 1689 London Baptist 
Confession of Faith, which is based on the WCF.  Please note the following:
Chapter 18 Of Assurance of Grace and Salvation
3. This infallible assurance doth not so belong to the essence of 
faith, but that a true believer may wait long, and conflict with many 
difficulties, before he be partaker of it: (1 John 5:13, Isa. 50:10, Mark 
9:24, Ps. 88, Ps. 77:1-2) yet, being enabled by the Spirit to know the 
things which are freely given him of God, he may, without extraordinary 
revelation in the right use of ordinary means, attain thereunto. (1 Cor. 
2:12, 1 John 4:13, Heb. 6:11-12, Eph. 3:17) *AND THEREFORE IT IS THE DUTY 
OF EVERY ONE TO GIVE ALL DILIGENCE TO MAKE HIS CALLING AND ELECTION SURE,* 
(2 Pet. 1:10) that thereby his heart may be enlarged in peace and joy in 
the Holy Ghost, in love and thankfulness to God, and in strength and 
cheerfulness in the duties of obedience, (Rom. 5:1-2,5, Rom. 14:17, Rom. 
15:13, Eph. 1:3-4, Ps. 4:6-7, Ps. 119:32) the proper fruits of this 
assurance; so far is it from inclining men to looseness. (1 John 2:1–2, 
Rom. 6:1-2, Tit. 2:11-12,14, 2 Cor. 7:1, Rom. 8:1,12, 1 John 3:2-3, Ps. 
130:4, 1 John 1:6-7)
4. True believers may have the assurance of their salvation divers 
ways shaken, diminished, and intermitted; as, *BY NEGLIGENCE* in preserving 
of it, by falling into some special sin which woundeth the conscience and 
grieveth the Spirit; by some sudden or vehement temptation, by God's 
withdrawing the light of His countenance, and suffering even such as fear 
Him to walk in darkness and to have no light: (Cant. 5:2,3,6, Ps. 
51:8,12,14, Eph. 4:30,31, Ps. 77:1-10, Matt. 26:69-72, Ps. 31:22, Ps. 88, 
Isa. 50:10) yet are they never utterly destitute of that seed of God, and 
life of faith, that love of Christ and the brethren, that sincerity of 
heart, and conscience of duty, out of which, by the operation of the 
Spirit, this assurance may, in due time, be revived; (1 John 3:9, Luke 
22:32, Job 13:15, Ps. 73:15, Ps. 51:8,12, Isa. 50:10) and be the which, in 
the mean time, they are supported from utter despair. (Micah 7:7-9, Jer. 
32:40, Isa. 54:7-10, Ps. 22:1, Ps. 88)
Westminster Assembly, The Westminster Confession of Faith, (Oak Harbor, WA: 
Logos Research Systems, Inc.) 1995, [Online] Available: Logos Library 
System.
I could quote many other relevant portions of the creed to support human 
responsibility but I won't.  The fact is, even from the Reformed 
perspective humans are responsible for everything they do.
RD>It seems to me, as I have often stated, that the Calvinist
RD>way of thinking takes power away from God.
No, the Calvinist view makes God totally sovereign over salvation.  You may 
not like the fact that He chooses to save some and that He chooses to 
reprobate others, the fact is that people are not lost because God cannot 
do anything about it--they are lost because He chooses not to give them 
grace and instead reprobates them.  (See Romans 9-11).  There is a big 
difference between not being able to save them and choosing not to save 
them.
RD>To Arminians, all men are 
RD>savable.
Then why are any lost?  If they are all savable then they should all in 
fact be saved.  But even in the Arminian view people are lost.  Why can't 
God do something about this?  Such a God is either weak, powerless, and 
less than God or He is cruel because He is able to save (according you at 
least) and doesn't do it.
The Calvinist view, however, is clearly more consistent.  People are in 
bondage to sin and the sinful nature and freely choose to rebel against 
God.  God is thus totally just in damning and condemning all to hell for 
His glory.  However, in His mercy and for His greater glory, He chooses to 
save some though not all.
Genesis 6:5
5 The LORD saw how great man's wickedness on the earth had become, and that 
every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time. 
Ephesians 2:3
3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of 
our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we 
were by nature objects of wrath. 
The New International Version, (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan Publishing 
House) 1984, [Online] Available: Logos Library System.
RD>(a scriptural conclusion, as I have shown repeatedly).  Jesus blood cov
RD>who will let it.
So Jesus' blood is essentially powerless for those who freely reject it?
If this is the case then God is unable to save those who reject Him.  But 
the Bible says that ALL have rejected Him!  And so all of us should in fact 
be lost.  (See Romans 3:10-18, 23).  If Jesus' blood is available to all 
why do they then reject it?  Secondly, the Scripture says that no one can 
come by free will alone.  They must be born again and they must be enabled 
to come to Him (See John 3:3, 7; 6:44-45, 65).
The answer is that God has in His infinite wisdom reprobated them and 
decided to save only those He chose before the foundation of the world.
The fact is, God never rejects anyone who comes to Him but the flip side of 
it is that no one will come to Him except those who have been elected.  
(See John 6:37).
RD>Under Calvinistic doctrine, the unelect are unsavable
No, under Calvinist doctrine the unelect are reprobated by God's sovereign 
choice, they are not unsavable.  He could save them if He wanted to do so 
but He chooses not to because it brings glory to Him that some are damned 
and some are saved.  
Romans 9:16,22-24
16 It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's 
mercy. 22 What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, 
bore with great patience the objects of his wrath--prepared for 
destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known 
to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory-- 24 
even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the 
Gentiles? 
The New International Version, (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan Publishing 
House) 1984, [Online] Available: Logos Library System.
RD>matter what Jesus did, or what God tries to do.  This is the "defeated"
RD>as you put it.  The scripture shows that God often puts people's fate in 
RD>their
RD>own hand,
God always allows humans to choose their own destiny.  The catch is that 
they always choose hell unless He irresisibly draws them to repentance.  I 
had a fellow come to my Bible study the other day.  He was angry because he 
thought that God was somehow capricious, damning and electing people by 
whim alone.  He asked, "Well, what if a man came to altar and sincerely 
wanted to be saved but God rejected him instead?  Wouldn't that be unfair?"
First of all, no one who sincerely comes to Him will be rejected!  (See 
John 6:37).  Secondly, the person who comes to Him is drawn to do so in the 
first place.  So the theorectical question is impossible.
So I asked the inmate (in front of about 25 others in the Bible study) if 
he himself were saved?  He answered, "No."  I said, "Well, God drew you 
here to this service for a reason.  This is a divine appointment for your 
salvation.  Do you want to receive the free gift of salvation at this altar 
right now?"  "No," he said.  "Then WHAT ARE YOU MAD ABOUT??!!!," I asked.  
"You're throwing up hypothetical questions about supposing someone comes 
sincerely and is rejected and you don't even want to repent and be saved in 
the first place.  You're just using that as an excuse not to serve God.  Do 
you know why you don't want to be saved?  It's because you haven't been 
convinced and God hasn't enabled you to believe because if He had you would 
make your way to this altar right now in front of all these men.  The fact 
is you just came to this service to debate me in front of these men--you 
didn't come here sincerely desiring to be saved."
The fact is that no one who sincerely wants to be saved will be rejected!!
CHAP. XVIII. - Of Assurance of Grace and Salvation
1. Although hypocrites and other unregenerate men may vainly deceive 
themselves with false hopes and carnal presumptions of being in the favour 
of God, and estate of salvation(Job 8:13-14, Micah 3:11, Deut. 29:19, John 
8:41) (which hope of theirs shall perish): (Matt. 7:22-23) yet such as 
truly believe in the Lord Jesus, and love Him in sincerity, endeavouring to 
walk in all good conscience before Him, may, in this life, be certainly 
assured that they are in the state of grace, (1 John 2:3, 1 John 
3:14,18-19,21,24, 1 John 5:13) and may rejoice in the hope of the glory of 
God, which hope shall never make them ashamed. (Rom. 5:2,5)
Westminster Assembly, The Westminster Confession of Faith, (Oak Harbor, WA: 
Logos Research Systems, Inc.) 1995, [Online] Available: Logos Library 
System.
Bad news--there won't be any good ol' boys in heaven.  Only those who come 
to Him by grace through faith in Jesus Christ will be saved.
Sincerely in Christ,
Charlie Ray, 
Chaplain
1 Timothy 4:16
Watch your life and doctrine closely.
Persevere in them, because if you do,
you will save both yourself and your hearers.  (NIV).
chaplain@isgroup.net
---
 * WR  # 461 * Sola Scriptura, Solus Christus, Sola Gratia, Sola Fide.
---------------