MJ> What side would you rather be on? The one that gives all the credit to
 MJ> God or the one that takes some of the credit from God?
The Arminian point of view does not take credit or power away from God, it 
simply follows the scripture which shows us that we must take responsibility 
for our choices.  It seems to me, as I have often stated, that the Calvinist 
way of thinking takes power away from God.  To Arminians, all men are savable 
(a scriptural conclusion, as I have shown repeatedly).  Jesus blood covers 
all who will let it.  Under Calvinistic doctrine, the unelect are unsavable, 
no matter what Jesus did, or what God tries to do.  This is the "defeated" 
Jesus, as you put it.  The scripture shows that God often puts people's fate 
in their own hand, or even in the hands of other people, for example, 
Abraham's attempts to save Sodom, and Moses' changing of God's mind when God 
was bent on destruction.  However, it NEVER shows God creating anything with 
the intention of it being evil and condemned.  Remember, God, in Jeremiah 3, 
says that he intended for the Jews to obey and be saved.  Their own 
disobedience caused their fall, just as disobedience caused the fall of Adam 
and Eve, and that of Satan.
A "victorious" Jesus is one who gives us a choice, and can save all who make 
the right choice.  A "defeated" Jesus is one who wasted his death on people 
who were already saved, and cannot do anything for those who are damned.
Robby
--- Maximus 3.01
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