Hi RANDG,
***snip****
RW>        Seems to me that there are those who are predestined to
RW>be saved.  EPHESIANS 1:3-14 would indicate this.
RW>        However, this predestination is based on God's
RW>foreknowledge.  ROMANS 8:28-30 would indicate this.  So it
RW>seems to be, not that God -forces- people to be saved, but that
RW>He knows from the beginning that they will be.
And He cannot know this unless He also predetermined and decreed it--He is 
King and Sovereign over every event.  In fact He sustains the universe by 
His power (see Hebrews 1:3).
RW>        At this point, Calvin thought like a computer
RW>programmer:  if some are predestined to be saved, all others
RW>are predestined to the opposite.  You're either a "one" or a
RW>"zero", in this scheme of things.
RW>        Certainly anyone's will cannot help.  For our will is
RW>unable to make a 100% good choice or decision.  JEREMIAH 17:9
RW>and ROMANS 7:7-25, show this, and ROMANS 3:9-20 makes it final.
RW>        Nevertheless, Peter declares that "God is not willing
RW>that any should perish" [2 PETER 3:9 (KJV)].
RW>        How He achieves this is, I think explained in this
RW>way.  Those who are not specifically predestined to be saved,
RW>still have an open choice.  The Holy Spirit is always working
RW>to draw people to Christ.  If anyone resists, that person
RW>remains unsaved.  If anyone, by the pure grace of God, does not
RW>resist, that person will be saved.
I agree up to the last sentence, Randg.  The grace of God cannot be 
resisted by the elect because grace is only given to the elect and only the 
elect respond to God's call.  (See Ephesians 2:8-9; John 6:37, 44-45, 65).
John 6:37
37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I 
will never drive away. 
The New International Version, (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan Publishing 
House) 1984, [Online] Available: Logos Library System.
Romans 2:4
4 Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and 
patience, not realizing that God's kindness leads you toward repentance? 
The New International Version, (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan Publishing 
House) 1984, [Online] Available: Logos Library System.
RW>        God has chosen not to explain this apparent paradox.
The apparent paradox is that God's decree seems to contradict human 
freedom.  But our minds are limited...  God's is not.  He is infinitely 
wise.
RW>        But in the end, it makes no practical or pastoral
RW>difference, even though it is a very large theological
RW>problem.  As Calvin himself indicated [sorry, it's too long ago
RW>to remember an exact reference], we can not identify who is
RW>elect and who is not, anyway.  Therefore we can only obey the
RW>Great Commission zealously, in order to be sure we do proclaim
RW>the gospel to all who are going to respond.  This, because it
RW>is our proclamation that this person or that one is predestined
RW>to respond to!
True.  From a human perspective we are no less obligated to live holy and 
to preach the Gospel to every creature.  These are the appointed means of 
bringing the elect to appropriate the grace given to them through faith at 
the point of their repentance.
RW>        I realize there was a movement among some Baptists in
RW>the U.S. in the last century, to say, "If they're going to be
RW>saved anyway, we can save ourselves all that work".  But this
RW>is contrary to what Calvin taught, and what Christ commanded.
Yes, the non-missionary Baptists in the South practically died out.  The 
Primitive Baptists are the only remaining ones I know of and their 
denomination is extremely small.  Unfortunately, the lack of ministerial 
training has resulted in antinomianism and the anti-missionary emphasis.  
That's what happened when confessional churches lose their traditions and 
their confessions of faith.
RW>        I presume an Arminian would also be zealous about
RW>carrying out the Great Commission, on the belief that anyone we
RW>don't reach with the gospel is lost, and we are responsible.
We are responsible to obey the Great Commission.  Individuals are 
responsible to answer the call if they are elect.  However, God is 
responsible to actual draw them (See John 6:44-45).
****snip****
RW>        If Calvin actually taught that there are only two
RW>classes of people-- predestined to salvation and predestined to
RW>damnation, he was mistaken.
No, I believe he was right.  Read Romans 9-11 sometime.  God loved Jacob 
and hated Esau before they were born and had done either right or wrong.  
Either way both Arminianism and Calvinism reject universal salvation and 
*few* will be saved.  There will be many who are reprobated and lost for 
all eternity---and justly so. (See Romans 3:10-18, 23).
RW>If Arminius taught that man's free
RW>will can be used to achieve salvation, he was even more mistaken.
I'm not sure about Arminius.  However, John Wesley believed in prevenient 
grace--that God provided enough grace for all men to have the ability to 
choose or reject God's free offer of salvation in Christ Jesus.  It is not 
a matter of achieving salvation.  However, from a Calvinist perspective 
this prevenient grace must be a dismal failure because if it is supposed to 
enable human choice it doesn't do the job because many, many are actually 
lost.  Calvinism, on the other hand, teaches that Jesus never fails and 
actually saves all of the elect--not one of them is lost!  And only those 
who actually receive grace will actually respond.  (John 6:37, 10:27).
God bless.
Sincerely in Christ,
Charlie Ray, 
Chaplain
1 Timothy 4:16
Watch your life and doctrine closely.
Persevere in them, because if you do,
you will save both yourself and your hearers.  (NIV).
chaplain@isgroup.net
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 * WR  # 461 * Sola Scriptura, Solus Christus, Sola Gratia, Sola Fide.
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