Hello Ron!
Sunday January 11 1998 10:12, Ron McDermott wrote to Chris Lord:
 CL>> In focussing attention on the "educated person", Peters
 CL>> rightly identified it  as a concept which is laden with
 CL>> positive value, and that the value is intrinsic. In this
 CL>> sense of "education", we do not attempt to become educated
 CL>> as a means to something else, such as a job, but because the
 CL>> qualities of the truly educated person are just those that
 CL>> are desirable for a person to have.
 RM>
 RM> "In this sense" is the operative phrase.  In
 RM> practice, this may NOT be the primary motive..
So the motive is for training not education???
I'll post a critique of Peters' in a separate message.
 CL>> For this reason, education doesn't have an aim, or extrinisic, or
 CL>> instrumental  purpose, and this distinguishes it from training,
 CL>> which always does.
 RM> Based solely, however, on the limiting nature
 RM> of the "in this sense" phrase, and not upon the
 RM> reality of education....
Is the reality education or training.  Not withstanding that some education 
is or should be taking place when people are being trained
 CL>> As a result of making comparisons between the "educated
 CL>> person" and the "trained person", Peters concluded that the
 CL>> following three conditions were  necessary to the correct
 CL>> application of the most central meanings of the word
 CL>> "education":
 RM> I always become concerned when someone else makes
 RM> an attempt to tell me what is "correct"...  ;-)
Good, (too many people accept too much because it is supposedly "correct".
One could argue that Peter's arguement was flawed.  A critique follows.
 CL>> that "education" implies the transmission of what is
 CL>> worthwhile to those who become committed to it;
 RM> Only partially.. Often it is the transmission of
 RM> what someone ELSE thinks is worthwhile to those
 RM> who become committed to it...
What is worthwhile?  Are there absolutes?  Is there "truth"?
 RM>
 CL>> that "education" must involve knowledge and understanding
 CL>> and some kind of cognitive perspective, which are not inert;
 RM> "Inert"?  Definition in context required...
see critique of Peters to follow
 CL>> that "education" at least rules out some procedures of
 CL>> transmission, on the grounds that they lack wittingness and
 CL>> voluntariness on the part of the learner.
 RM>Huh?  Where does THIS come from?  I don't get all
 RM> the ramifications of this, but it seems clear
 RM> that this means that the learner must accede to
 RM> every piece of knowledge conveyed to him or her,
 RM> and I don't think that is either necessary OR
 RM> traditionally true...  Many of the "lessons"
 RM> conveyed are additudinal, or non-obvious at the
 RM> time of transmission, and may not be "understood"
 RM> until later...
Implications on educators here too.
Peters could have enhanced hi point of view by asserting
that the process of "education" engages the reason of the
learner so thatÿthey come to believe and act for their own
reasons, and it rules out someÿprocedures on the grounds
that sufficient wittingness and voluntarinessÿon the part of
the learner would be lacking.
 CL>> Some interpretation of these conditions is necessary. In
 CL>> the first condition, for example, "the transmission of what
 CL>> is worthwhile" is not just a transmission of whatever those
 CL>> in power might like to think worthwhile, it is  the
 CL>> transmission of a commitment to the pursuit of truth, and to
 CL>> the quest for  the best standards of reason for seeking the
 CL>> truth. This, in turn, is to be  interpreted in terms of
 CL>> traditional ways in which the truth has been pursued,
 CL>> which comes out as something like the traditional academic
 CL>> disciplines.
 RM> "Not just"... Non-exclusive phrasing..
 CL>> Truth is of value for its own sake.
 RM> Value judgement.. While I agree with it, there is
 RM> no reason why EVERYONE would, or does...
becomes problematic accross cultures too.
Cheers
Chris
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